SchmutzigMSP

Oh no, I don't feel you're "occupying space". Far from it. I was trying to (although poorly, I now see) illustrate that pilots have a wide range of information to consult with. It's not like they only have their experience or "gut" as some may feel. Ultimately it is their final decision, though.

Of course a Colgan VP would say that, especially now.

If anything, it's becoming clearer that the onus for this tragedy is resting more and more with Colgan.

azj

Schmutzig - Got it. Glad we now both understand each others point of view. Isn't it amazing that two folks from different sides of the flightdeck door can have an adult and TWO WAY conversation? Incredible.

Mike - tell me just how we all know that the CA did not meet the qualifications to be in the cockpit? Again, intentionally or unintentionally forgetting a fact on an application does NOT render one unqualified. One can split hairs and beat the word "qualified" to death, as I suspect you will do. But pilot qualifications are based on black and white numbers, requirements and practical test standards. There is lots of room to interpret the results but the bottom line is that the CA met and exceeded the REQUIREMENTS for being qualified in the cockpit. Wether he was good at his job is up to interpretation.

Let's all remember these people are dead. It's easy for people, especially airline mgmt to sit back in their climate controlled rooms and judge their employees. It's also a lot easier when these people paid the ultimate price. Let's all have a little more respect.

iTanNicNic

I try to avoid RJ's at all costs, but the exception to that rule is the E145 service offered by RP. They have, IMHO, the best crews and I've never felt unsafe or uncomfortable on any of my RP flights.

Only thing I don't like is that I can't spell their name to save my life.

MikeMpls

False job application = should not have been in that position. The question then become what other shortcuts he might have taken.

That's been clear all along -- nothing's changed in that regard.

SchmutzigMSP

Slippery slope argument, eh?

The job application gets you in the door. But what gets you flying for an airline is passing all their required training tests, both on paper, in simulators, and with the final checkrides. Colgan had plenty of time and chances to determine whether he was taking any "shortcuts" in operating the aircraft safely.

AndyTLe

This is interesting. Usually it is the name of the mainline carrier that the press uses instead of that of the RJ carrier. Obviously the Continental name is better known than Colgan. I've been suprised at how Continental has been able to distance itself a bit from the crash.

tvnwz

I wonder where he ranks with his fellow Colgan pilots? Were his fitness level scores last? Middle? First?

Sort of like what do you call the guy who finishes last in medical school?

Doctor.

Where did this pilot finish?

DukeBBFan

Do you realize that some of the most sophisticated, complicated, and expensive planes being flown today are being flown by "kids" under 30? They are the pilots flying for the US Air Force, Navy and Marines. Skilled flying is not just determined by the number of hours sitting in the cockpit but by the training and skill of the individual pilot. Age should not be a determining
factor.

tonypct

I too have been wondering about that.

This latest news about the accident can only help those who have filed a wrongful death suit against the airlines in question.

Robert Leach

Comments:

1. There is no way to police a requirement for "adequate rest" short of hooking every pilot up in a sleep lab the night before he/she works. I would point out that "adequate rest" means different things to different people, and depends upon both the quantity and the quality of the rest.

2. The low pay for junior pilots is in part a function of working for a regional carrier and in part a function of a union-driven system whereby the young work for peanuts and the senior work for many times more. Since some were using medical analogies above, it would be similar to your primary care doctor getting paid one fee to see you for bronchitis if he had only been in practice for a year, and a much greater fee if he had been in practice for 20 years, which is absolutely not the case (your vastly experienced and talented doctor gets paid not one penny more than a doc in practice on day one). I personally think that seniority should be rewarded, but the vast difference in pay scales in aviation is a bit ridiculous. Even at Delta, the last I heard (bankruptcy may have changed this) the junior mainline pilots started out around $32K a year (inflating upward over the life of a career to $250K or so). A seven or eight-fold pay differential junior to senior strikes me as a bit kooky. (It also inhibits movement to another carrier because seniority gets lost).

3. I like the idea above about a pseudo-apprenticeship arrangement whereby the most junior pilots fly with the more senior ones. If only implemented on a part-time basis, this would be a good thing.

GoSpurs

Thanks azj for an excellent explanation. There are times when I have no choice but to fly a regional carrier and your comments help.

From a purely passenger point of view, I found the transcript from the voice recorder, prior to their realizing they were surely going down, to be very concerning. Shame on whomever placed them, their passengers and fellow crew in a situation that they themselves admitted or demonstrated they were not capable of handling because of inexperience and inadequate training.

Colgan's assurance that their pilots meet the minimum FAA standards is not reassuring to passengers. One must expect that all statements from the company will only be legally self-serving and surely drafted by counsel.

azj

Of course Continental is going to distance themselves from Colgan. They want all the glory (low cost subcontracted work to ensure mainline profits) but none of the responsibility of outsourcing to the lowest bidder.

jbatl

OMG!



Actually, I get your point, agree service does not equal safety, and respect your contribution to this thread.

However, I wasn't suggesting I'd choose to fly Shuttle America because they are a 'safe bet.' Fact is, I am concerned about my safety every time I step on a plane (and get into a car, for that matter).

For the most part, regional carriers provide inferior service and hard product to mainline carriers. Add to that my perceptions about a difference in safety, and I'd rather route away from the likes of ASA and Comair. I don't want to feel unsafe AND uncomfortable, if I can avoid it.

My perceptions aren't reality? Okay. But the industry hasn't done a very good job of proving that to me.

azj

Service on regional airlines is dictated by their mainline partner. At least at NWA, our service is exactly how it occurs on NWA mainline. Now that we've switched to the DL onboard product, that too mirrors mainline. So, I still don't buy the inferior product claim on a regional airline. It's the same product. Both mainline and regional have the ability to present the product in a good or a bad way, nobody is immune to that. As far as a/c goes... well, that is also, a function of mainline. Regional airlines have very little control over what goes on at their very own company! Everything is dictated by mainline. As for the OT performance argument which I'm certain this discussion will turn to... mainline also controls our non mechanical cancelations. They TELL their regional partners how many flights to cancel when it comes to IROPS and slot limitations. They also handle our bag transfers... therefore THEY have bungled those statistics. The DOT rankings of airlines are so skewed that it doesn't even measure who the true offenders are, nor does it show who the real winners are.

zsmith2

+1 ^^