DL cheating European passengers on taxes and fees
Feb 1, 2008, 12:28 pm
#46
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 11,377
The award flights charges are definitely bad for the FTer/passenger/SkyMiles member and are emblematic with some of DL's negative attitudes towards the passenger/member.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:30 pm
#47
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: eastern Europe & NC
Posts: 4,527
When it means you will have to pony up an extra $200 for your award ticket, somehow I would think that you would comprehend that you should be concerned. But maybe not. Maybe you think the devaluation of SkyMiles is a good thing for its members.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:30 pm
#48
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SLC
Programs: DL DM-1MM
Posts: 309
YQ is not a government imposed tax, but it is indeed a tax imposed by a large number of carriers.
Fraud? - No
Fraud? - No
Feb 1, 2008, 12:30 pm
#49
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Posts: 11,377
I agree...but you should care about it if they charge this fee for award tickets (wherever they are allowed to). That brings your total cost from miles+$0+taxes to miles+cash+taxes.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:35 pm
#50
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: VPS
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Besides, from what I learned today, it is either "base fare" or "tax", and there aren't any other choices. Since it is an add-on, it is listed as a tax. And when someone reviews it with you, they see it listed as a tax. The typical customer service agent may have no idea what YQ means. She sees it listed as a "tax" and so she tells you that it is a tax.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:37 pm
#51
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I believe in market forces. So since you feel so strongly about this, why don't you just give your business to NW and let DL know that's what you are doing and why.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:37 pm
#52
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: eastern Europe & NC
Posts: 4,527
It amazes me how some think it is nothing for a business to make misrepresentations of this nature. I guess it says something about overall business ethics these days that some just accept it.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:42 pm
#53
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: eastern Europe & NC
Posts: 4,527
If mergers result in an airline oligopoly, then the danger of airlines hosing their ff members greatly increases. That is one reason all ff'ers ought to write, call, and otherwise contact elected officials and regulators to oppose any DL/NW merger.
Is the spirit of SaveSkyMiles.com dead? Will the wimpy reaction of DL ff'ers send a message through the DL officials who monitor these boards that they seem to have a green light to move faster on this plan? Wow, I have rarely seen a more ''shoot the messenger'' mentality.
Last edited by Carolinian; Feb 1, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Feb 1, 2008, 12:43 pm
#54
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 11,377
In and of itself it is not fraud.
Charging it for award tickets may or may not be deceptive marketing/advertising.
The terms and conditions for SkyMiles awards state:
Responsibility for Taxes, Fees, and Other Charges
The payment of any taxes, fees, and other government or airport-imposed charges is the responsibility of the passenger. Award Travel tickets do not include a $3.40 Federal Excise Tax, Passenger Facility Charge(s) of up to $4.50 for each flight segment, or the September 11th Security Fee of up to $2.50 for each flight segment. A flight segment is defined as a takeoff and a landing. Award Travel tickets to/from Hawaii/Alaska do not include U.S. International Air Transportation Tax of up to $15.00 round-trip.
Award Travel tickets for international travel, including for travel to/from PR/U.S. Virgin Islands, do not include U.S. International Air Transportation Tax of up to $30.20 and U.S. and foreign user, inspection, security or other similarly based charges, fees or taxes of up to $280, depending on itinerary. Taxes and fees for award travel are the responsibility of the passenger and must be paid at the time the ticket is booked. In some instances, the government may elect to collect the fees directly from the passenger. Some airline partners charge a fee for Award Travel redemptions for travel on their airlines. These fees, when applicable, are the responsibility of the passenger and will be collected at the time of booking. Additional fees apply for some SkyMiles transactions.
The payment of any taxes, fees, and other government or airport-imposed charges is the responsibility of the passenger. Award Travel tickets do not include a $3.40 Federal Excise Tax, Passenger Facility Charge(s) of up to $4.50 for each flight segment, or the September 11th Security Fee of up to $2.50 for each flight segment. A flight segment is defined as a takeoff and a landing. Award Travel tickets to/from Hawaii/Alaska do not include U.S. International Air Transportation Tax of up to $15.00 round-trip.
Award Travel tickets for international travel, including for travel to/from PR/U.S. Virgin Islands, do not include U.S. International Air Transportation Tax of up to $30.20 and U.S. and foreign user, inspection, security or other similarly based charges, fees or taxes of up to $280, depending on itinerary. Taxes and fees for award travel are the responsibility of the passenger and must be paid at the time the ticket is booked. In some instances, the government may elect to collect the fees directly from the passenger. Some airline partners charge a fee for Award Travel redemptions for travel on their airlines. These fees, when applicable, are the responsibility of the passenger and will be collected at the time of booking. Additional fees apply for some SkyMiles transactions.
DL wrote the rules--they should at least follow them.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:51 pm
#55
Join Date: Aug 2005
Programs: DL Diamond, HH - Gold, MR - Plat, IHG - Plat, UA
Posts: 1,750
Something imposed by a carrier may be a ''fee'' or a ''surcharge'' or the like. It is not a ''tax''. Only government units can impose a ''tax'' and an air carrier is not a government unit.
It amazes me how some think it is nothing for a business to make misrepresentations of this nature. I guess it says something about overall business ethics these days that some just accept it.
It amazes me how some think it is nothing for a business to make misrepresentations of this nature. I guess it says something about overall business ethics these days that some just accept it.
The problem here is not one of sementics, but one of training.
The reps should be taught how to distinguish between the various tax and fee codes.
If you truly feel that Delta is commiting piracy, defrauding you, cheating its customers, I suggest that you file a compaint with the US Attorney's office or hire a lawyer and file a class action suit.
I don't know what you hope to gain here other than what you have which is a better understanding of what was in the $332 cost to begin with.
And on behalf of the other posters here to invested time on the internet and in my case on the phone with SMS in an effort to assist you, you are most welcome.
Feb 1, 2008, 12:56 pm
#56
Join Date: Jul 2007
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As far as I am concerned, further posting in this thread is pointless, so I'm outta this one.
Feb 1, 2008, 1:47 pm
#57
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Oakland Park, FL
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Posts: 480
I love Delta and would defend them to the end on most things, but this practice is just plain wrong.
Feb 1, 2008, 2:13 pm
#58
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: eastern Europe & NC
Posts: 4,527
But this conversation has been about award tickets, right? Yes, I agree that the Delta all-in price on paid itineraries is competitive. But charging over $300 for an "award" ticket is not. Most of that $300+ is not taxes, it is the fuel surcharge, and the money goes to Delta.
I love Delta and would defend them to the end on most things, but this practice is just plain wrong.
I love Delta and would defend them to the end on most things, but this practice is just plain wrong.
Delta's apologists sound like a certain former president trying to argue ''what 'is' is''. Who cares if stronger words may apply, but ''wrong'' is just fine.
I have used the word ''devaluation'' as well, and they don't seem to have a comeback on that, but just want to sit back and accept it.
Feb 1, 2008, 2:22 pm
#59
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 11,377
Your bringing up, though, both award and revenue tickets in one breath did make the arguments/issues confusing at times.
Feb 1, 2008, 2:32 pm
#60
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SLC
Programs: DL DM-1MM
Posts: 309
i believe the title says that DL is cheating passengers, but now it is a devaluation of skymiles (or whatever clever substitute you would like to use).
either way, you pointed out a difference in origination costs. good sleuthing.
either way, you pointed out a difference in origination costs. good sleuthing.