sxf24

You said 50% of US airlines were bankrupt. I proved your wrong with a high level summary. I could expand the list to include all US air carriers, but the percentage would substantially drop.

As to EAS subsidies, they're a drop in the bucket and the traffic has no statistical impact on the yields DL receives on TATL flights.

How the US chooses to fund it's government operated ATC system is a political issue. In the end, it has absolutely no impact on DL (or any other US carriers) pricing power and ability to compete on TATL routes.

Threy

sxf24, you made up a lot of points already, but where on earth did I state that 50 % of all US airlines were bankrupt.

Even if I did not say it, but I believe at some point, even more than 50 % of all US domestic capacity was flying under bankruptcy protection... a quick calclation of the status quo in late 2005 with DL, NW and UAL would probably support that theory...

Your last point is not true, you should know better...

sxf24

I drew a conclusion based on what you said:

FYI - DL, NW and UAL enplane about 25% of domestic passengers.

Threy

Unfortunately the short periods of profitable operation were always wiped out within one or two quarters in the deep deep red. The US legacy carriers are a picture perfect example for poor management over a period of decades now and telling the CAB what to charge + a certain premium does not really count, but also resulted in some bankruptcies...

And you know what, this comment is not from myself, but from professors teaching at top rated universities and business schools in the US like Wharton or Yale.
So do not blame the messenger, blame the guys teaching economics in the US...


Again, my main point was a level playing field.

If we do not have it, it is a rather philosophical discussion whether DL got and gets more from its Government than AF received in 1992/1993. And quite frankly, it is only worth it to compare carriers under the same market environments, so comparing a fully privatised LH with AA, UA or DL would make sense, if they play by the same rules. Unfortunately the US Government prohibits LH from competing within the US, while the German domestic market is completely open to the foreign competition, just to give you another example of the US Government support...

Threy

That is an interesting conclusion. Just for the objectivity of the discussion, I would prefer that if you quote me, quote me, but do not draw up any conclusions...

And capacity is not normally not measured by passengers, but revenue passenger kilometers or miles. According to this stat, the abovementioned carriers offered roughly 37-38 %... I assume it was more in 2005, since DL and NW cut a lot of domestic traffic.

Anyway, you get an idea how high the number was...

http://www.eclatconsulting.com/im_carrier_monthly.htm

sxf24

I'm sorry if I drew an incorrect conclusion. In an effort to be more objective in the future, I'll be adding you to my ignore list and refraining from future responses.

As to the condescending remarks regarding traffic, I'm familiar to the different metrics. I grabbed the first relevant measurement I could find from BTS and posted it. Unlike some of your prior posts, it's an actual supportable fact, not something I pulled out of thin air.

ClipperDelta

It's rather disingenous of you to be calling for a level-playing field when you believe it suits you. Were you calling for the same thing years ago when the subsidies were freely flowing to the Euro carriers?

And cabotage for foreign carriers within the US is no longer that great of a goal for many foreign carriers. They've seen what it's like to compete with the next generation of JetBlues or AirTrans and most of them have become lukewarm at best to the idea. Notice that hardly any foreign carrier in this latest attempt at US-EU Open Skies has brought up cabotage as one of the top goals...instead raising foreign ownership limits in existing US carriers has.

Threy

Was there a time when US airlines did not receive Government subsidies but European airlines did ? Was it the time when most of the international traffic was regulated anyway and prices were set by IATA, so it did not make a difference, if country A had the same capacity as country B.

Didn`t the US and France or The Netherlands and the US have huge controversies about fare levels and seats in the 1970`s, 1980`s and even 1990`s


What do you think is ownership of US domestic airlines and code sharing ?

In other words = US domestic traffic rights for EU airlines and all they wanted and have...Do not expect LH to fly to DFW via IAH again and to be keen on the traffic between the cities.

But you mentioned the EU only and that is quite correct, cause a Qantas or Emirates or Etihad or even EL AL might see it different, because a tag on or a hub at JFK plus widebody service from JFK-LAX or SFO would probably fit their operations. And I guess it is tough for DL, UAL or AA to compete against an EK 773 operating at 5 cents ( CASM )

ClipperDelta

I will even let you have your twisted logic that the one-time 9/11 payments and subsequent ATSB loan guarantees (which many US carriers did not take advantage of) count as US government subsidies (that have helped US carriers compete unfairly ALL these years). The period prior to 9/11, US carriers were certainly exposed to virtually no US government subsidies. The Ch.11 law has always been there as a law for ALL US companies, not just airlines - and has been explained to you over and over again, is not a panacea (many airlines went into Ch.11 and never came out of it). BTW, countries like Canada and Brazil also have similar laws, do I see you crying about AC's re-emergence and resurgence from bankruptcy?


Regardless, airlines like UA, AA, DL, NW, during this period prior to 9/11 did not exercise Ch.11 so the law "as subsidy" (as you insist) might as well not have been there. The UAs, AAs, DLs, and NWs were competing fair and square while BA and AF were being pumped up and primed for competition as private companies.

You want to talk about fair and square and comparisons with similar environments?
Then fill Germany with 300 million people and the market power to support 30+ airlines...then we can start talking about comparing the US domestic market with the German domestic market on a fair basis. Until then, who the hell wants to go compete for domestic German passengers? The market is simply not lucrative or big enough.

Then ensure that Germany or France or whichever country has five or six major airlines competing for limited slots to markets like China. Because that's the kind of environment that the US carriers face whereas airlines like KL or AF or LH at the drop of a hat can simply expand to lucrative places like China (even if the PRC has a restricted bilateral with France, the Netherlands, etc.) since there are virtually no other Dutch or French or German carriers competing for similar rights.

Then ensure that no matter what, AF or LH or AZ or SK or LX or IB will never have the government to fall back on if they are near death even when they are completely privatized. The fact is, if AF were to be nearly insolvent, you can be guaranteed that the French government will step in (no matter how privatized AF becomes) as they will NEVER allow their flag carrier to disappear. None of the US airlines have that type of assurance....

MastaHanky

OMNI, anyone?

ClipperDelta

Sorry to drag everyone into this...but some things are just too rich to go unanswered. That last post will be my last attempt to reason....

ecaarch

Clipper, I know how you feel. Sometimes reading these threads is like watching a Peanuts TV special - there are people in the background, and I know they are talking, but all that comes out is "Wah, wah, wah."

tofromord

My old boss (CEO of a US publicly traded company) almost always bought full fare first class tickets (even though he was plat). I suspect he did it just for the miles since he would have the rest of us buy cheaper tickets (though we were also elite and always upgraded). His secretary left his expense report (which he approved himself) on the copier and it made for very interesting reading as it was contrary to the company's own travel guidelines. He was a do as I say not as I do type. I'm glad I'm out of there.
TF

underpressure

I am shakin my head, I've done it a hundred times. If you think the J to EU is tough, check out the J to NRT.....I have had to do that as well.