Bumped from JFK-ATL leg of Intl trip, DM ticketed in First, compensation?
Aug 6, 2022, 4:10 pm
#31
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I'm not sure that's entirely true. I've read on this site that it is possible in certain scenarios for an aircraft to have a passenger load lower than the available seats due to weight and balance issues. I believe this can occur if the aircraft is scheduled to carry a shipment of cargo that, along with a "full" load of pax and baggage, would put the plane over a safe weight for the route. While weather (or political) conditions requiring a longer route might also lead to similar limitations, those are generally excluded from IDB, but the airline wanting to carry cargo instead of a "full load" of passengers is certainly something that is generally within the airline's control.
Aug 7, 2022, 10:39 am
#32
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I have tried various times to submit my complaint on the DL website but I never received the confirmation email with the case number etc., checked spam/everything.
Could it be that because my Skymiles account is EU based, the claim is not handled by DL but AF/KL, thus no case number?
And if yes, how could I contact DL Customer Care in the US?
Could it be that because my Skymiles account is EU based, the claim is not handled by DL but AF/KL, thus no case number?
And if yes, how could I contact DL Customer Care in the US?
Aug 8, 2022, 11:03 am
#34
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I'm not sure that's entirely true. I've read on this site that it is possible in certain scenarios for an aircraft to have a passenger load lower than the available seats due to weight and balance issues. I believe this can occur if the aircraft is scheduled to carry a shipment of cargo that, along with a "full" load of pax and baggage, would put the plane over a safe weight for the route. While weather (or political) conditions requiring a longer route might also lead to similar limitations, those are generally excluded from IDB, but the airline wanting to carry cargo instead of a "full load" of passengers is certainly something that is generally within the airline's control.
Sep 2, 2022, 9:56 am
#35
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Join Date: Nov 2019
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So, 1 month later, I received a response from DL in which they essentially claimed that flight DL684 (JFK-ATL) was cancelled and then reinstated due to ATC, it thus follows that Denied Boarding Compensation does not apply in this situation.
What would the best course of action be? Is this accurate?
I recall the DL agents at JFK and Reservations saying the flight is full and we cannot be reinstated on it.
Looking forward to your insights
NCEFlyer
What would the best course of action be? Is this accurate?
I recall the DL agents at JFK and Reservations saying the flight is full and we cannot be reinstated on it.
Looking forward to your insights
NCEFlyer
Sep 6, 2022, 9:55 pm
#36
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 541
Bumped passengers are NOT eligible for compensation in the following situations:
- Aircraft Change - A smaller plane is substituted for the larger one the airline originally planned on using due to operational or safety reasons.
- Weight and Balance - Weight or balance restrictions that apply to planes with 60 or fewer seats for operational or safety reasons.
- Downgrading - A passenger is downgraded from a higher class of seating to a lower class. In this case, the passenger is entitled to a refund for the difference in price.
- Charter Flights - A flight contracted for a specific trip that is not part of an airline’s regular schedule.
- Small Aircraft - Scheduled flights on planes holding fewer than 30 passengers.
- Flights Departing a Foreign Location - International flights to the United States. However, some airlines on these routes may provide compensation voluntarily. Also, the European Commission has a rule on bumping passengers from flights that apply to passengers departing from a European Union member state; ask the airline for details, or visit this page.
- If you are not bumped from a flight for one of the reasons above, you qualify for involuntary denied boarding compensation if an airline requires you to give up your seat on an oversold flight and:
- You have a confirmed reservation,
- You checked-in to your flight on time,
- You arrived at the departure gate on time, and
- The airline cannot get you to your destination within one hour of your flight’s original arrival time.
- You have a confirmed reservation,
I would probably mention EU261, clearly they had options that would have gotten you to LIR within 4 hours, if they had just put you on your original flight that did take off.
Sep 7, 2022, 5:48 am
#37
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC
Programs: DL PM, DL MM
Posts: 4,246
Hello everyone
As a long time reader of FT, I do now seek some advice related to a recent experience on DL.
My girlfriend and I (DM) were booked and confirmed on ZRH-JFK-ATL-LIR (Costa Rica) on July 28/29, with an overnight at Atlanta. We were in First/D1 using 2 GUCs.
Upon landing at JFK, the DL app displays that DL684 (JFK-ATL) was “cancelled”, and that we were rebooked on the next morning flight at 6am (DL424). After a call to reservations we found out that we were actually bumped from the flight, since it was oversold, and they “needed the space”. The agent tried for a long time to put us back; either F or C+/MC, but nothing worked. We ended up at the Garden Inn for the night.
The next morning, DL424 (6am flight JFK-ATL) was delayed by ~ 2h, which made us miss our connecting flight to LIR (1h30 connection at ATL, which is why we wanted to be in Atlanta the night before). We were rebooked on the following day’s flight, but First was sold out so we ended in MC. Delta put us at The Westin, which is a nice hotel tbh.
What are your thoughts? I sent in a complaint but not sure what to expect. It would be my guess that this is a case of Involuntary Denied Boarding, maybe EC261 could also apply since we departed from Europe.
Thanks all!
NCEflyer
As a long time reader of FT, I do now seek some advice related to a recent experience on DL.
My girlfriend and I (DM) were booked and confirmed on ZRH-JFK-ATL-LIR (Costa Rica) on July 28/29, with an overnight at Atlanta. We were in First/D1 using 2 GUCs.
Upon landing at JFK, the DL app displays that DL684 (JFK-ATL) was “cancelled”, and that we were rebooked on the next morning flight at 6am (DL424). After a call to reservations we found out that we were actually bumped from the flight, since it was oversold, and they “needed the space”. The agent tried for a long time to put us back; either F or C+/MC, but nothing worked. We ended up at the Garden Inn for the night.
The next morning, DL424 (6am flight JFK-ATL) was delayed by ~ 2h, which made us miss our connecting flight to LIR (1h30 connection at ATL, which is why we wanted to be in Atlanta the night before). We were rebooked on the following day’s flight, but First was sold out so we ended in MC. Delta put us at The Westin, which is a nice hotel tbh.
What are your thoughts? I sent in a complaint but not sure what to expect. It would be my guess that this is a case of Involuntary Denied Boarding, maybe EC261 could also apply since we departed from Europe.
Thanks all!
NCEflyer
Sep 7, 2022, 8:43 pm
#38
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Beyond the legalities--this is really bad on Delta's part, and they should be bending over backwards to make things right with this customer. Instead, they're trying to give him the brush-off. This ATC excuse sounds bogus to me. ATC doesn't reinstate flights. Maybe ATC initially told DL to cancel, then changed their minds, but DL still is obligated to get all their original, confirmed passengers on board.
I think this is one that needs some media saturation to get Delta's attention.
I think this is one that needs some media saturation to get Delta's attention.
Sep 7, 2022, 9:21 pm
#39
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Sounds like DL is trying to claim ATC instead of weather because ATC may be force majeure under EU261 while I don't believe airlines are allowed to reject EU261 on the grounds of weather (unless it is outside the norm -- e.g., a sudden snowfall in June).
As noted by others you need to write back and be explicit that you are not seeking claims under Denied Boarding Compensation, you are seeking compensation under an EU261 claim which carries legal weight where unfortunately in the US, denied boarding compensation (even if applicable) is truly at the discretion of the airlines
As noted by others you need to write back and be explicit that you are not seeking claims under Denied Boarding Compensation, you are seeking compensation under an EU261 claim which carries legal weight where unfortunately in the US, denied boarding compensation (even if applicable) is truly at the discretion of the airlines
Sep 8, 2022, 12:10 am
#40
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So, 1 month later, I received a response from DL in which they essentially claimed that flight DL684 (JFK-ATL) was cancelled and then reinstated due to ATC, it thus follows that Denied Boarding Compensation does not apply in this situation.
What would the best course of action be? Is this accurate?
I recall the DL agents at JFK and Reservations saying the flight is full and we cannot be reinstated on it.
Looking forward to your insights
NCEFlyer
What would the best course of action be? Is this accurate?
I recall the DL agents at JFK and Reservations saying the flight is full and we cannot be reinstated on it.
Looking forward to your insights
NCEFlyer
I do think it's important to give any business the chance to resolve a complaint amicably before going to an official complaint (for my sake, the airlines sake, and the DOT's/public's sake), but I'm tired of going back and forth on pretty major issues or airline's intentional disregard of the law or the CoC.
Sep 8, 2022, 12:58 am
#41
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: ZRH
Programs: DL PM, LH SEN (*G)
Posts: 13
Alright, thank you for all the replies. We indeed reached an impasse with DL Customer Care after I mentioned, and insisted on EU261 applicability:
Was given 20k Skypesos as an apology.
I have already submitted a DoT complaint, but will consider contacting the Swiss enforcement body for EU261 claims should the former not yield anything tangible. Let's see.
Thanks again!
NCEflyer
At this time, I must respectfully advise that we consider this matter closed and we will not respond to any additional correspondence regarding your travel. [...] NCEflyer, it is always difficult to reach an impasse with a customer, but we hope you can make the decision to move forward.
I have already submitted a DoT complaint, but will consider contacting the Swiss enforcement body for EU261 claims should the former not yield anything tangible. Let's see.
Thanks again!
NCEflyer
Sep 8, 2022, 7:26 am
#42
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Alright, thank you for all the replies. We indeed reached an impasse with DL Customer Care after I mentioned, and insisted on EU261 applicability:
Was given 20k Skypesos as an apology.
I have already submitted a DoT complaint, but will consider contacting the Swiss enforcement body for EU261 claims should the former not yield anything tangible. Let's see.
Thanks again!
NCEflyer
Was given 20k Skypesos as an apology.
I have already submitted a DoT complaint, but will consider contacting the Swiss enforcement body for EU261 claims should the former not yield anything tangible. Let's see.
Thanks again!
NCEflyer
If flight was canceled due to ATC order to reduce flights, then it was outside DL control, no compensation due.
FWIW, airlines arent the ones to cancel flights due to weather unless the weather exceeds safe operating limits of aircraft. When weather turns bad, ATC limits the number of planes in the air. ATC saying we can only handle 3/4 scheduled traffic is why flights get canceled when weather turns bad.
Sep 8, 2022, 8:01 am
#43
Join Date: Jun 2015
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Just to clarify, did the flight status of DL684 actually say "canceled", or did you just get an automated email saying your flight has been changed? IME, those emails don't always provide accurate reasons.
Also, I'd point out that you were rebooked on a flight that would have made your original connection, but it too was delayed - what was the reason for that. IMHO, that's the one you should be compensated for, since it's ultimately the reason you arrived at your destination a day late.
As with most things, the text of the law as it's been presented here isn't entirely clear (and I must admit, I haven't looked it up in its entirety). The wording about being a ticketed passenger I think is more to exclude unconfirmed/standby passengers rather than being a weasel loophole. (By that logic, the instant they bump you, you're no longer a ticketed passenger, so then no one ever gets compensation for anything.)
I'd keep at it, but that's just me. This is about as egregious as the experience that soured me on Air Canada for life. Good luck!
Also, I'd point out that you were rebooked on a flight that would have made your original connection, but it too was delayed - what was the reason for that. IMHO, that's the one you should be compensated for, since it's ultimately the reason you arrived at your destination a day late.
As with most things, the text of the law as it's been presented here isn't entirely clear (and I must admit, I haven't looked it up in its entirety). The wording about being a ticketed passenger I think is more to exclude unconfirmed/standby passengers rather than being a weasel loophole. (By that logic, the instant they bump you, you're no longer a ticketed passenger, so then no one ever gets compensation for anything.)
I'd keep at it, but that's just me. This is about as egregious as the experience that soured me on Air Canada for life. Good luck!
Sep 8, 2022, 9:10 am
#44
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I disagree as most of the time the technical details are complicated because airlines keep making things more and more complicated. At the end of the day, I give airline X money to get me to a location at a certain time.
Sep 8, 2022, 1:10 pm
#45
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Location: ZRH
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The reasons indicated by the DL CS agent are the following:
I never saw that the flight was cancelled (we were on our first flight from ZRH), just the app indicated "flight cancelled, you have been rebooked".
Your Flight 684 from New York – Kennedy to Atlanta on July 29 was originally cancelled and then reinstated due to Air Traffic Control (ATC). It was then delayed due to crew. Your Flight 424 from New York – Kennedy to Atlanta on July 30 was delayed 3.01 hours due to crew