DL47 AMS>JFK Cancelled Due To Co-Pilot Under The Influence
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International legacy carrier copilot in his early 50s and presumably the end to his flying career after the investigation. It makes one wonder whether he was drinking a lot the night before and still had a high BAC when he reported to work in the morning or whether he really was drinking within T-8 or so hours of the flight. The reports of a smell of alcohol suggest the latter. With all other crew testing zero, it doesn't seem like he was out for the evening with coworkers enjoying Amsterdam. AFAIK AMS is a station where DL would normally schedule crew to have only one night rest before being scheduled to fly back to the USA, so there isn't an option (as there would be at some stations) to have a wild night out the first night and then lots and lots of time to recover before working again. Early morning arrival, remainder of day and night to rest, then report back to the airport the following day (more than 24 hours, but not approaching 48 hours). With jetlag, it might be natural to stay out/up late upon arrival, but crew who do this regularly would have a routine and not act like it's their once in a lifetime chance to party in Amsterdam.
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International legacy carrier copilot in his early 50s and presumably the end to his flying career after the investigation. It makes one wonder whether he was drinking a lot the night before and still had a high BAC when he reported to work in the morning or whether he really was drinking within T-8 or so hours of the flight. The reports of a smell of alcohol suggest the latter. With all other crew testing zero, it doesn't seem like he was out for the evening with coworkers enjoying Amsterdam. AFAIK AMS is a station where DL would normally schedule crew to have only one night rest before being scheduled to fly back to the USA, so there isn't an option (as there would be at some stations) to have a wild night out the first night and then lots and lots of time to recover before working again. Early morning arrival, remainder of day and night to rest, then report back to the airport the following day (more than 24 hours, but not approaching 48 hours). With jetlag, it might be natural to stay out/up late upon arrival, but crew who do this regularly would have a routine and not act like it's their once in a lifetime chance to party in Amsterdam.
Keep in mind that you only reduce your BAC by .01-.015 per hour (although it does drop a little bit faster at extremely high BACs). This means - even if you had 8 hours without drinking - you've only reduced your BAC by .08-.12. This means that - worst (best?) case the co-pilot would only have had to be at .14 BAC to still be at .06 before the flight.
This doesn't at all excuse the co-pilot (and indeed, this is why most airlines have stricter requirements - 12 hours instead of 8 required by the FAA and I assume EASA) - but people tend to underappreciate how long it takes to metabolize out alcohol fully from the system.
Way back in my college days I used to have a breathalyzer I would use before driving (now I just Uber so it's never an issue at all). There were many, many a morning I woke up shocked to see I was still at .12-.15+ BAC and had to hold off driving after at least 6+ hours of sleep. I would never have guessed I was still legally drunk - I felt hungover but not drunk. Your body doesn't appreciate it after you've "normalized" to that new state.
Again, doesn't excuse the co-pilot at all (it is a professional responsibility to consider these things), but useful to keep in mind.
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The figure we typically use is a bit higher than yours, something on the order of 0.02-0.03 per hour. Having babysat many of a drunk college student in the ED overnight, I feel confident in this rate of metabolism.
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At lower levels of intoxication the liver is the limiting factor and most livers can only reduce BAC by around .015% an hour. There's obviously personal variance there - some do it faster or slower. That said, it would be extremely unusual to metabolize at .03%/hour except in extreme circumstances.
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It's AMS. No one suspects drinking if they smell brownies on your breath.
Oh, wait, he's a pilot. Guess blowing 0.0 on the breathalyzer is still a grey area.
Oh, wait, he's a pilot. Guess blowing 0.0 on the breathalyzer is still a grey area.
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I read that Delta is one of the few airlines that has some sort of program to keep pilots employeed even if they show up to the aircraft intoxicated. Most airlines will only throw you a lifeline if you self-report and enter a rehab program. If you enter the flight deck drunk, you're done. This is really concerning. Pilots are paid exceptionally well and they are supposed to be professionals. Professionals do not put the lives of their customers and coworkers at risk. If this is true then Delta should be required to list the names of these pilots on their website and if I found out that one of them is up front on my flight then I should have the right to cancel without penalty.
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I read that Delta is one of the few airlines that has some sort of program to keep pilots employeed even if they show up to the aircraft intoxicated. Most airlines will only throw you a lifeline if you self-report and enter a rehab program. If you enter the flight deck drunk, you're done. This is really concerning. Pilots are paid exceptionally well and they are supposed to be professionals. Professionals do not put the lives of their customers and coworkers at risk. If this is true then Delta should be required to list the names of these pilots on their website and if I found out that one of them is up front on my flight then I should have the right to cancel without penalty.
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All major US airlines have a HIMS program. It’s almost a requirement since alcoholism is considered a sickness and is not generally grounds for termination Depending on circumstances. The HIMS program in place through ALPA is extremely successful and used as a model for other programs. The point of having these programs is to encourage pilots to voluntarily come forward if the are sick and get treatment. The alternative is they hide the problem and continue to fly.
Around 2009 two Delta pilots were fired when they fell asleep in the flight deck. And they should have been but at least that truly was an accident. This guy knowingly got drunk and then showed up for work. There are too many good pilots waiting to move up from the regionals to keep screwups around.
Delta also fired a flight attendant (who also happened to be an FT member) around ten years ago for taking modeling photos onboard the aircraft. I'd say that's far less of an offense than showing up to work drunk and dragging your image through the mud.
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I believe in helping anyone who comes forward and asks for help. That indicates they have at least some integrity. But it's especially bad when you have that option and you still show up drunk.
Around 2009 two Delta pilots were fired when they fell asleep in the flight deck. And they should have been but at least that truly was an accident. This guy knowingly got drunk and then showed up for work. There are too many good pilots waiting to move up from the regionals to keep screwups around.
Delta also fired a flight attendant (who also happened to be an FT member) around ten years ago for taking modeling photos onboard the aircraft. I'd say that's far less of an offense than showing up to work drunk and dragging your image through the mud.
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You lack some facts. No Delta pilots were fired for being asleep. I suspect your confusing that with another incident. As far as terminations for other issues the one involving the actual termination is almost always the tip of the iceberg regarding why they were terminated. There is almost always a long history of issues before the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.
But ALPA can't claim their focus is safety when they support a pilot that showed up drunk. He had every opportunity to get help but chose not to. All he had to do that morning was pick up the phone and call in sick.
And for those saying alcoholism is an illness, well guess what, some illnesses will prevent you from being a pilot. Epilepsy, seizures, heart problems, etc. If we are ok preventing pilots with those illnesses from flying then why not prohibit the illness of alcoholism?
Last edited by readywhenyouare; Jan 31, 2019 at 7:39 am
#30
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It was the SAN-MSP flight that flew past the airport for an hour. The pilots claimed they were engaged in figuring out the company scheduling program. But that story just didn't really add up. It's kind of hard to believe they were so wrapped up in a trip bidding program that they forgot they had a plane to fly. Many believe they both fell asleep and it was only when the flight attendant came to the door that they woke up. No matter what happened, it wasn't good
But ALPA can't claim their focus is safety when they support a pilot that showed up drunk. He had every opportunity to get help but chose not to. All he had to do that morning was pick up the phone and call in sick.
And for those saying alcoholism is an illness, well guess what, some illnesses will prevent you from being a pilot. Epilepsy, seizures, heart problems, etc. If we are ok preventing pilots with those illnesses from flying then why not prohibit the illness of alcoholism?
The National Transportation Safety Board has determined that Northwest Airlines flight 188 overflew its destination airport of Minneapolis by more than 100 miles and failed to maintain radio communications because the pilots became distracted by a conversation unrelated to the operation of the aircraft. The NTSB's accident brief, released today, also note air traffic control shortcomings during the event, and the Board issued two safety recommendations to address those shortcomings.
On October 21, 2009, Northwest Airlines flight 188, an Airbus A320 (N374NW) operating as a scheduled flight between San Diego and Minneapolis, did not communicate with air traffic control for approximately one hour 17 minutes. While in this NORDO (no radio communications) state, it flew past its intended destination at a cruise altitude of 37,000 feet. The crew subsequently re-established radio communications and landed without further incident. There were no injuries.
Last edited by Jeff767; Jan 31, 2019 at 8:29 am