LonghaulCommuter

Just noticed the the new A350s put into service. If you're a regular D1 flyer, you're probably thrilled with the suites. If you're an economy FF, it could be negative. Premium Select replaces EC and you can only upgrade with money, miles, or a GUC (DMs). I suppose an OpUp is to PS is more likely than previously to D1 but at a 100% price premium over lowest economy (DTW to NRT in Dec), that might be OK even for restrictive business travel policies. Thus, the cabin might sell out fairly easily. As a DM, I always valued free access to C+ when flying on my own dime. That's gone with the new planes. What do you think? Is this new cabin a plus or minus for economy FFs?

KDCAflyer

Biggest enhancements DL could do is add a few rows of C+, and allow RUCs to be used for upgrades to PS.

I think it is a big devaluation, and it also leaves revenue on the table. Surely there are customers who are willing to pay for C+, but not PS.

rylan

Yes it is a devaluation. No more extra legroom for elites. You'll have to pay the significant increase for the premium seats now.

ATOBTTR

Have to say I agree. As a DM, I have no incentive to book a route with an A350 on it. Given how DL has been going with the program, it may well be that DL doesn't care or think it will matter. But I'll either take a different routing on DL with other than A350 equipment or book another carrier. I'll have to wait until I actually experience them but my initial thought is the D1 Suites are not all that impressive. They look like a 767 D1 suite with a door. The seats actually don't look all that big or comfortable. I'll have to weigh the non-tangible benefits that having status comes with, such as IROPS assistance or the DM phone line with assistance in managing the reservation but I have no tangible reason to book a regular economy seat on the A350 the other options.

I may still try to fly the A350 inaugural if they have a domestic run, as I've always wanted to be part of an inaugural flight experience but other than that, I'm not super excited about the A350, based off initial impressions.

dinanm3atl

Oh yah. If you fly to Asia and used to C+ upgrades, or option to buy, then it's an extreme devaluation. As you have to burn a GUC to get to PS.

aero0729

I actually never understood Premium Economy. Here is why:

1. The seat is not good for sleeping.
2. You still sit up.
3. Sleeping sitting up is not really possible (for most)
4. Sitting up in a 20" seat vs sitting up in a 18" seat makes a difference, but not significant enough for me to pay more than say $10 per hour for the extra width (It will be priced WAY higher than that)
5. You are still sitting up!
6. Middle seats... and LOTS of them.
7. Domestic F on an international aircraft is not comfortable. Domestic F to me is almost as back breaking as C+ once you hit 5 hours.
8. This may sound crazy.. but those seats are like BOXES. Comfort + may be better (if you are sitting next to someone you know_) its actually more ergonomic.(my opinion) But thats going away.
9. You still have to SIT UP!!!

No value in this product to me. I would never look forward to a flight in Premium Economy.

Note* Delta wants 65,000 miles one way for this rather upright seat. American is 70K in BIZ to Asia, Alaska can get you there for as little in 50K on CX. DL is TRYING to chase us away.. yet we stay ( albeit a little less loyally)

Beautiful plane, Crap product and very dense configuration with at-least 10 more seats than everyone else. The suites are a novelty, they will not perform well for sense of space.. you will be squished compared to a Reverse Herringbone seat. Also DL lied about the pricing. They said D1 Suites would be priced the same.. doesn't look it so far.

javabytes

The point is to offer a product to someone who doesn't want to be squished into regular economy, who wants a better experience than Y, but doesn't find J worth it.

No, it's not a flat bed. But for 1/3 to 1/2 the price, that may be sufficient. 80% of the passengers on the plane make the trip in Economy. Maybe not the best night's sleep, but the vast majority of the population doesn't find it anywhere near realistic to pay $4,000 extra for a better night's sleep.

The mileage rates DL wants for its flights borders on the absurd. But that's nothing specific to PE, that has been the case for years now... and those who try to defend it by claiming DL miles are easier to earn have Stockholm Syndrome.

And yes, I agree it's a step backwards for elites who are buying Economy, and no longer even get a few extra inches of legroom for their loyalty.

gregsfortytwo

Lousy for economy Medallions, but I've loved Virgin Atlantic for their Premium Edonomy and am glad it's spreading. I can't remotely justify the huge multiples for business class but a 50% (or even 100%) increase for a seat that makes sleep possible (for me, maybe not you) is well worth it at my standard of living. Not to mention actually being able to move my body around -- I'm skinny enough but at 6'1" even a Comfort+ seat (though practically necessary over more than an hour) is a squeeze. Though looking at the 2x4x2 arrangement I'm a little sad -- can't imagine taking a middle aisle middle seat unless maybe I'm in a big group!
Of course, that doesn't help me much with my company's lousy travel rules when I'm flying for work. Will have to see what I can work out with my manager on the longer flights or I too will be avoiding the A350 on corporate travel. :/

Personally I'm sort of hoping they quit with the RUC/GUC distinction and just start making it one upgrade cert for each cabin class you move up. Dunno if that's feasible or likely, though

Robert Leach

Personally, I could never do transpacific in anything other than a lie-flat (suite or not). PE would not cut it.

Where I would like to see a Premium Economy product offered on Delta is to/from Europe. 6-8 hours in a PE product would be tolerable on that stage length and for the daylight westbound flights would be sufficient in my mind, assuming there is a reasonably decent service offered as part of it.

ijgordon

Are there no exit rows in coach at least?
AA still allows upgrades from Y to J on aircraft with PE, though I suppose that party may not last forever.

3Cforme

Twenty years ago even international First on TPAC meant recliner seats. Somehow, people survived. Full lie-flat seats give me much better (any, frankly) sleep but I won't pay 8x in $ or miles for it.

To the OP's thesis that this is a devaluation, it is surely a reduction in benefit for some members. Delta could tell us how many silver/gold/plat SkyMiles members made TPAC trips last (remember - Premium Select is not confirmed for the generally TATL aircraft) and got a free seat in Comfort+. I suspect it's a very small fraction of the total SkyMiles member population.

jdrtravel

There does seem to be 2 decent bulks heads, one an exit row.

Does anyone yet know the actual pitch being offered on the A350?

Is it possible that the preferred seats reserved for medallions will have slightly more pitch? NWA had this on the A330 before DL reconfigured to add C+. On that a/c, the forward Y cabin had, I think, 33" of pitch and the rear had 31".

DL has the seat map available in flight searches, but the link to it on their website under the seat map section is not live yet.

sbm12

Turns out I sleep well enough in a PremY seat. And I've done it a few times now.

Have you tried it??

It is more width, more pitch, greater baggage allowance, upgraded meals and more.

My threshold is typically around $250 o/w for a TPAC to buy into PremY. That's closer to $20/hour than $10 but it is where I set my limits. I pay $10/hour extra to fly JetBlue where I can (i.e. up to $50) knowing I'll get the extra legroom and free, fast wifi on board.

jdrtravel

Personally I don't sleep that well on a plane in any seat, including the lay flat coffins. This make Prem Y a very good option for me, because I am basically awake or semi-awake the whole time anyways, so I want to be relatively comfortable. Of course laying down flat is more comfortable, but not really worth it for me.

RaflW

The loss of C+ for PM/GM on PE equipped aircraft is indeed an elite devaluation, IMO. Time will tell (but really the market will decide) if they figure out a way to rejigger Y to offer perhaps three rows of C+ on the A350.

They did spec the A350 with a large PE cabin. VS has a fairly large one on their A330s, and DL may have some data via 006 ticket sales on partner flights to help them decide on the allocation.

It seems to me though that DL may eventually add back C+. Right now they are probably worried about C+ reducing demand for the new PE. But air travel markets are so highly segmented now that I can easily see demand for four price/product tiers TPAC (and maybe TATL). Y at rock bottom (and eventually 30" pitch), Y+ at 133-150% of Y fares, PE at ~200% and J at 400% and up (obviously could be considerably more as you move up to J fully refundable).

The 777 fleet needs a refresh in Y (the IFE is looking particularly old school). PE to JNB or Australia would be nice, but losing more affordable (and elite upgradeable) C+ is a tough tradeoff.

I also wonder what the decision point could be for DL to add PE to the A330 fleet. The cabin refreshes are fairly recent, so no hurry on that, but it could come. And 2-3-2 is nicer than the planned 2-4-2 on the A350, IMO.

Is DL routinely using the A332 subfleet on longer (including TPAC) segments? If so, it might make sense for them to add PE there as a next step (maybe after 777s) if PE sells well on the A350.