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Delta Upgrade Certificate Availability Confusion (KLM Operated)

Delta Upgrade Certificate Availability Confusion (KLM Operated)

Old Nov 9, 16, 1:30 pm
  #1  
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Delta Upgrade Certificate Availability Confusion (KLM Operated)

Hi

I'm hoping someone can help me understand what seems like some conflicting information. I have done some searching but based on what I have seen, it seems like the following should be possible.

I have an upcoming trip ATL->AMS->DEL with the AMS->DEL (DL9438) being operated by KLM. I just spoke with a Delta rep who said that the KLM operated segment does not have any GUC availability.

However, when I tried to check availability on expertflyer, I see that for the flight (atleast when coded as KLM 871) I see the following...

Business - Upgrade with DL SWU/Global Upgrades & Fare Class | Z | 9

I believe this means that there should actually be availability for my GUC to be used on that flight.

Am I misunderstanding something? If I am not, are there any suggestions for how to enable the delta reps to see this availability?

Thanks!
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Old Nov 9, 16, 3:39 pm
  #2  
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Welcome to FT!

For inventory purposes, the KL flight and the DL flight are two separate flights. You would need to have the corresponding DL upgrade inventory bucket available to use the GUC.

You can try to call back and see if they can recode the flight under the KL flight number (they have done this in the past but I don't know their propensity to do it now).
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Old Nov 9, 16, 4:12 pm
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The above is correct. KLM 851 Availability has nothing g to do with DLXXXX availability even though really the same plane.

Not all DL fares will work with a KLM flight number. If it does they could try and change it. However this is a reticketing then. They can insist on change fee and reprice.
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Old Nov 9, 16, 7:05 pm
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What's the actual date of travel? I can check the codeshare flight number for Z inventory. Assuming the inventory exists, you should be able to make this work, but Delta's IT will not make it easy on you, because it's programmed to look for OP inventory... even on KLM flights. So naturally the agents are likely to insist that inventory is not available, but you need to hold your ground and insist that 1) the upgrade should book into Z class, not OP class, and 2) Z inventory is available. I just went through this, it took almost an hour and half to get the upgrades processed.
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Old Nov 9, 16, 7:25 pm
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Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
What's the actual date of travel? I can check the codeshare flight number for Z inventory. Assuming the inventory exists, you should be able to make this work, but Delta's IT will not make it easy on you, because it's programmed to look for OP inventory... even on KLM flights. So naturally the agents are likely to insist that inventory is not available, but you need to hold your ground and insist that 1) the upgrade should book into Z class, not OP class, and 2) Z inventory is available. I just went through this, it took almost an hour and half to get the upgrades processed.
So if Z exists on the KL flight, Delta agents can book a DL coded flight into KL Z and use a cert?
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Old Nov 9, 16, 7:42 pm
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Originally Posted by TTT View Post
So if Z exists on the KL flight, Delta agents can book a DL coded flight into KL Z and use a cert?
Per the cert terms...

Delta Air Lines marketed tickets:

Applicable booking classes W, Y, B, M, S, H, Q, K, L, U, T, X or V
• DL operated flights upgrade to DL class RP (Travel Agents R)/OP (Travel Agents O)/WP (Travel Agents not eligible).
• KL operated flights upgrade to KL class Z.
• VS operated flights upgrade to VS class G (Travel Agents not eligible).

...

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines marketed tickets:

Applicable booking classes Y, B or M
• KL operated flights upgrade to KL class Z.
• DL operated flights upgrade to DL class RP (Travel Agents R)/OP (Travel Agents O)/WP (Travel Agents not eligible).
So if you book Delta-marketed flights, you can book any fare class except E, and upgrade into KLM Z class. If you book KLM marketed tickets, you need Y/B/M.

I've never found any difference between Z inventory on the KL flight numbers and the DL codeshare. If you get an availability display from KLM, it returns Z inventory for both the KLM and Delta codeshare flight (DL9667/KL624 in the example below)... I've never seen a difference in availability between the KL flight number and the codeshare.

Code:
115DECATLAMS-ZKL                                              
 15DEC  THU   ATL/EST     AMS/‡6                                
KL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
** KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES - AN **       36 TH 15DEC 0000      
 7KL  624 Z5 ATLAMS  400P  600A‡1 772 0                         
 8DL*9667 Z5 ATLAMS  400P  600A‡1 772 0                         
 9DL   72 Z0 ATLAMS  552P  815A‡1 333 0                         
10DL   74 Z0 ATLAMS  810P 1035A‡1 333 0                         
11DL*9375 Z0 ATLAMS 1025P 1225P‡1 772 0                         
12AF  689 Z1 ATLCDG  850P 1050A‡1 772 0                         
13AF 1640 Z1    AMS 1150A  105P   318 0                         
14AF  681 Z1 ATLCDG  535P  740A‡1 77W 0                         
15AF*8224 Z1    AMS  910A 1030A   73W 0                         
16KL*7206 Z2 ATLDTW 1235P  238P   757 0                         
17KL*6018 Z2    AMS  359P  540A‡1 333 0.
If you request the availability display from Delta instead, it doesn't show the KLM flight numbers only the Delta codeshares... but again, the inventory is identical.

Code:
115DECATLAMS-ZDL                                              
 15DEC  THU   ATL/EST     AMS/‡6                                
DL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
 7DL9667 Z5 ATLAMS  400P  600A‡1 777 0                          
 8DL8672 Z1 ATLCDG  850P 1050A‡1 772 0                          
 9DL8531 Z1    AMS 1150A  105P   318 0                          
10DL  95 Z2 ATLDTW 1235P  238P   757 0                          
11DL 132 Z2    AMS  359P  540A‡1 333 0                          
12DL8672 Z1 ATLCDG  850P 1050A‡1 772 0                          
13DL8537 Z1    AMS 1240P  155P   321 0.
In this circumstance, you should be able to buy a ticket on Delta for travel on DL9667 and upgrade that into Business class using a GUC. But Delta's IT apparently tries to show OP inventory for these flights, so agents will try to tell you there are no upgrades available.

Last edited by javabytes; Nov 9, 16 at 7:49 pm
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Old Nov 9, 16, 8:38 pm
  #7  
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Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
So if you book Delta-marketed flights, you can book any fare class except E, and upgrade into KLM Z class. If you book KLM marketed tickets, you need Y/B/M.
That's really good to know. I have been given the answer the OP got and took it for what it was without pushing it. Would be interested to hear how one goes about convincing a DL agent to push for KL Z space on a DL coded. Specifically, what was said and to whom.
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Old Nov 9, 16, 9:07 pm
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Originally Posted by TTT View Post
That's really good to know. I have been given the answer the OP got and took it for what it was without pushing it. Would be interested to hear how one goes about convincing a DL agent to push for KL Z space on a DL coded. Specifically, what was said and to whom.
It went something like this:

Me: I'd like to use a GUC on this flight.
Agent: There are no upgrades available.
Me: Yes, there are.
Agent: The computer says there are none.
Me: You need Z inventory, and this flight is showing Z5 (or whatever the number is)
Agent: Just because there is inventory doesn't mean there are upgrades available.
Me: That's kind of the definition of inventory.
Agent: Well we need OP inventory in order to upgrade, and the computer says there isn't any.
Me: *reads the terms of the cert where DL flights upgrade into OP, and KL flights upgrade into Z*
Agent: Hmm...

Completed this with the agent, then rinse and repeat for the supervisor. Then eventually the supervisor admitted she didn't know what to do because she never actually processes these, and put me on hold to get someone else to help. After about 90 minutes total, it was done.

You might save some time by telling the first agent up front that you have a complicated international itinerary involving partners and upgrades, and asking that they just transfer you to the international reissue desk.
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Old Nov 10, 16, 6:19 am
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Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
Per the cert terms...



So if you book Delta-marketed flights, you can book any fare class except E, and upgrade into KLM Z class. If you book KLM marketed tickets, you need Y/B/M.

I've never found any difference between Z inventory on the KL flight numbers and the DL codeshare. If you get an availability display from KLM, it returns Z inventory for both the KLM and Delta codeshare flight (DL9667/KL624 in the example below)... I've never seen a difference in availability between the KL flight number and the codeshare.

Code:
115DECATLAMS-ZKL                                              
 15DEC  THU   ATL/EST     AMS/6                                
KL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
** KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES - AN **       36 TH 15DEC 0000      
 7KL  624 Z5 ATLAMS  400P  600A1 772 0                         
 8DL*9667 Z5 ATLAMS  400P  600A1 772 0                         
 9DL   72 Z0 ATLAMS  552P  815A1 333 0                         
10DL   74 Z0 ATLAMS  810P 1035A1 333 0                         
11DL*9375 Z0 ATLAMS 1025P 1225P1 772 0                         
12AF  689 Z1 ATLCDG  850P 1050A1 772 0                         
13AF 1640 Z1    AMS 1150A  105P   318 0                         
14AF  681 Z1 ATLCDG  535P  740A1 77W 0                         
15AF*8224 Z1    AMS  910A 1030A   73W 0                         
16KL*7206 Z2 ATLDTW 1235P  238P   757 0                         
17KL*6018 Z2    AMS  359P  540A1 333 0.
If you request the availability display from Delta instead, it doesn't show the KLM flight numbers only the Delta codeshares... but again, the inventory is identical.

Code:
115DECATLAMS-ZDL                                              
 15DEC  THU   ATL/EST     AMS/6                                
DL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
 7DL9667 Z5 ATLAMS  400P  600A1 777 0                          
 8DL8672 Z1 ATLCDG  850P 1050A1 772 0                          
 9DL8531 Z1    AMS 1150A  105P   318 0                          
10DL  95 Z2 ATLDTW 1235P  238P   757 0                          
11DL 132 Z2    AMS  359P  540A1 333 0                          
12DL8672 Z1 ATLCDG  850P 1050A1 772 0                          
13DL8537 Z1    AMS 1240P  155P   321 0.
In this circumstance, you should be able to buy a ticket on Delta for travel on DL9667 and upgrade that into Business class using a GUC. But Delta's IT apparently tries to show OP inventory for these flights, so agents will try to tell you there are no upgrades available.
Is this true with non-JV (ie non-TATL) flights?
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Old Nov 10, 16, 7:33 am
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Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
Per the cert terms...
I've never found any difference between Z inventory on the KL flight numbers and the DL codeshare. If you get an availability display from KLM, it returns Z inventory for both the KLM and Delta codeshare flight (DL9667/KL624 in the example below)... I've never seen a difference in availability between the KL flight number and the codeshare.
Originally Posted by flyerCO View Post
Is this true with non-JV (ie non-TATL) flights?
Not in my experience:


Another consequense is Delta ICT not knowing how to proper credit upgraded KLM flights;
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Old Nov 10, 16, 8:18 am
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I had the same situation trying to use GUCs. KL operated, DL coded flights JFK-AMS. The agent said Z was available, but that the upgrade was only available if KL coded. They would only process it if the ticket was reissued to KL numbers. They waived the change fee and it increased the fare slightly.

I wonder why KL is releasing inventory on its flight numbers but not the delta code share, especially when these certificates can be used either way.
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Old Nov 10, 16, 9:46 am
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KLM is... Delta is screwing it up.

Grouchy, to your example...

11/16:
Code:
116NOVMSPAUH-ZKL                                              
 16NOV  WED   MSP/CST     AUH/‡10                               
KL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
** KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES - AN **        6 WE 16NOV 0000      
 7KL*6064 Z7 MSPAMS  314P  625A‡1 333 0                         
 8KL  449 Z7    AUH 1030A  820P   333 0                         
 9DL  160 Z9 MSPAMS  314P  625A‡1 333 0                         
10DL*9489 Z7    AUH 1030A  820P   333 0
Code:
116NOVMSPAUH-ZDL                                              
 16NOV  WED   MSP/CST     AUH/‡10                               
DL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
 7DL 160 Z9 MSPAMS    314P  625A‡1 333 0                        
 8DL9489 Z7    AUH   1030A  820P   333 0
11/17:
Code:
 17NOV  THU   MSP/CST     AUH/‡10                               
KL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
** KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES - AN **        7 TH 17NOV 0000      
 7DL  160 Z0 MSPAMS  314P  625A‡1 333 0                         
 8DL*9489 Z0    AUH 1030A  820P   333 0
Code:
117NOVMSPAUH-ZDL                                              
NO MORE.
11/18:
Code:
118NOVMSPAUH-ZKL                                              
 18NOV  FRI   MSP/CST     AUH/‡10                               
KL RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **                    
** KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES - AN **        8 FR 18NOV 0000      
 7DL  160 Z0 MSPAMS  314P  625A‡1 333 0                         
 8DL*9489 Z0    AUH 1030A  820P   789 0
Code:
118NOVMSPAUH-ZDL                                              
NO MORE.

Last edited by javabytes; Nov 10, 16 at 9:52 am
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Old Nov 10, 16, 10:44 am
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Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
What's the actual date of travel? I can check the codeshare flight number for Z inventory. Assuming the inventory exists, you should be able to make this work, but Delta's IT will not make it easy on you, because it's programmed to look for OP inventory... even on KLM flights. So naturally the agents are likely to insist that inventory is not available, but you need to hold your ground and insist that 1) the upgrade should book into Z class, not OP class, and 2) Z inventory is available. I just went through this, it took almost an hour and half to get the upgrades processed.
First, thank you everyone! I cannot believe how many people quickly jumped in here with useful information.

The flights I have booked are
DL 9574 on 11/29
DL 9438 on 12/23

I cannot find the availability when looking under the Delta flight number on expertflyer but I'm not sure yet if thats because it does not exist or if I am not searching for the correct thing

One more small piece of information that I don't know if is relevant (or would cause issue with reticket) is that both of my flights have Delta segments ATL-AMS and AMS-ATL. Would that eliminate the possibility or cause additional issues with recoding?

I will hopefully wait until you can take a look at my flights javabyte but overall it sounds like if there is availability I have to convince an agent to help me reticket those flights as KLM to be able to see the Z that should let me upgrade.

Also, sorry for the silly question but what does OP mean?

Thanks again for your help!
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Old Nov 10, 16, 10:52 am
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OP is the booking class that is necessary for upgrades into business class on Delta flights using GUCs.

Are you on DL 72 or DL 74 ATL-AMS on 11/29? And DL 73 or DL 75 on 12/23?
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Old Nov 10, 16, 11:01 am
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Originally Posted by javabytes View Post
OP is the booking class that is necessary for upgrades into business class on Delta flights using GUCs.

Are you on DL 72 or DL 74 ATL-AMS on 11/29? And DL 73 or DL 75 on 12/23?

DL74 (this segment actually leaves on 11/28, arriving 11/29)
DL73 on 12/23
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