are airlines practicing in Good Faith with FF?
Nov 17, 2015, 9:28 am
#16
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Minneapolis, formerly the shores of Lake Minnetonka
Programs: DL PM (and KM)
Posts: 394
It's not always about just getting something (money) for yourself. It's about creating change for the greater good of the industry. I'm not saying a class action suit will work in this instance, but the knock on class actions is always that the individual gets very little compensation and the lawyers make large sums so people see them as useless. In fact, the real end goal isn't always to make each individual whole from the previous slight, but to prevent those slights in the future. You need people who are willing to take on that fight without a direct reward to make things better.
Nov 17, 2015, 9:30 am
#17
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
thanks for the reply, and i suppose it is not a matter for either of those.
and I also acknowledge and agree that airline should be able to change FFP etc.
just what kind of time frame should be appropriate I suppose
while there is an OMNI forum, it is obvious this is also regard to the new DL C+ changes for the DL FFP
and I also acknowledge and agree that airline should be able to change FFP etc.
just what kind of time frame should be appropriate I suppose
while there is an OMNI forum, it is obvious this is also regard to the new DL C+ changes for the DL FFP
If you don't like DL's program, you should look for a carrier with an FFP which guarantees that the terms & conditions won't change for a year or whatever time period you believe is reasonable. (To save you time looking, you won't find one).
This is a tired issue and it's over. The courts have made it clear that the terms are disclosed and there is no adhesion. DOT has made it plain that it isn't getting into the FFP game and Congress isn't about to start enacting FFP protections which contravene contract law for a bunch of people who think that there is some constitutional right to a freebie.
FFP's are simply reverting from what they were during the financial crisis to what they originally were intended to be, a place to make excess inventory available so that people who are flexible and creative can cadge a trip which they otherwise would not have taken.
Nov 17, 2015, 9:35 am
#18
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATL
Programs: DL PM, 2+MM, AA Gold 1+MM, HH Diamond, MHG Silver,
Posts: 233
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-462_p8k0.pdf
From page 7 of the decision: "The court held that respondent
had failed to identify any material breach because the
frequent flyer agreement gave Northwest sole discretion to
determine whether a participant had abused the program.
Respondent appealed the dismissal of his breach of the
duty of good faith and fair dealing claim but not the other
claims that the court had dismissed"
It's a long read - but the take away is that there is no expectation of the airline acting in good faith towards the customer.
American's AAdvantage Program even put that in their Terms and Conditions:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/AAdvantage/termsConditions.jsp
"The AAdvantage program Terms and Conditions are governed by and to be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas. To the full extent allowed by law, these Terms and Conditions disclaim any duty of good faith and fair dealing as well as any implied contractual terms or obligations."
I doubt that you'd even get the $50 voucher.
Disclaimer: I'm only an internet lawyer (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
Nov 17, 2015, 9:38 am
#19
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 5,292
Nov 17, 2015, 9:40 am
#20
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pleasant Prairie, WI USA DL FO (until 2/04), NW silver '03, NW gold '04+'05 Plat '06+ (thanks, Leo!), DL SkyClub
Programs: DL Plat/ Million Miler, AS, Hilton, Marriott Bonvoy, Piggly Wiggly Pig Points
Posts: 2,233
Once upon a time airlines had excess inventory and a big issue with it. Rather than let those seats fly empty, American developed a scheme to reward "miles" which were redeemable for extra inventory.
Through lack of competition and much-better inventory control, plus wholesale changes in the industry, there is not much extra inventory at all. Frequent flyer programs are changing. When you sign up for a program, you agree to this (you even agree that DL could end it tomorrow).
There is simply not the need for the FFP of yesteryear. The economic cycle will at some point change. At that time, airlines can re-initiate, embolden, or develop new loyalty schemes. Until that time, we are stuck with what we have - a changing product.
For years airlines had to provide service for less than cost to remain competitive. They have been able to change this and are finally making profits. The yin to the yang.
Through lack of competition and much-better inventory control, plus wholesale changes in the industry, there is not much extra inventory at all. Frequent flyer programs are changing. When you sign up for a program, you agree to this (you even agree that DL could end it tomorrow).
There is simply not the need for the FFP of yesteryear. The economic cycle will at some point change. At that time, airlines can re-initiate, embolden, or develop new loyalty schemes. Until that time, we are stuck with what we have - a changing product.
For years airlines had to provide service for less than cost to remain competitive. They have been able to change this and are finally making profits. The yin to the yang.
For the infrequent frequent flyer, the notion of 25K miles and a free ticket was like, Wow! Now those tickets are few and far between and it is much more difficult for that flyer to rack up 25K as well. (And DL still sells that 25K pink elephant to newbies!)
For the elites, free tickets are probably not as important, IMHO, as the other perks for butt in seat suffering and that includes upgrades. I have a million plus miles in the bank but can I really use them? Take a free trip and no miles accrue and that doesn't help keep status for the next year.
Nov 17, 2015, 9:45 am
#21
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pleasant Prairie, WI USA DL FO (until 2/04), NW silver '03, NW gold '04+'05 Plat '06+ (thanks, Leo!), DL SkyClub
Programs: DL Plat/ Million Miler, AS, Hilton, Marriott Bonvoy, Piggly Wiggly Pig Points
Posts: 2,233
This might save you some time (and some lawyer fees)
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-462_p8k0.pdf
From page 7 of the decision: "The court held that respondent
had failed to identify any material breach because the
frequent flyer agreement gave Northwest sole discretion to
determine whether a participant had abused the program.
Respondent appealed the dismissal of his breach of the
duty of good faith and fair dealing claim but not the other
claims that the court had dismissed"
It's a long read - but the take away is that there is no expectation of the airline acting in good faith towards the customer.
American's AAdvantage Program even put that in their Terms and Conditions:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/AAdvantage/termsConditions.jsp
"The AAdvantage program Terms and Conditions are governed by and to be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas. To the full extent allowed by law, these Terms and Conditions disclaim any duty of good faith and fair dealing as well as any implied contractual terms or obligations."
I doubt that you'd even get the $50 voucher.
Disclaimer: I'm only an internet lawyer (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-462_p8k0.pdf
From page 7 of the decision: "The court held that respondent
had failed to identify any material breach because the
frequent flyer agreement gave Northwest sole discretion to
determine whether a participant had abused the program.
Respondent appealed the dismissal of his breach of the
duty of good faith and fair dealing claim but not the other
claims that the court had dismissed"
It's a long read - but the take away is that there is no expectation of the airline acting in good faith towards the customer.
American's AAdvantage Program even put that in their Terms and Conditions:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/AAdvantage/termsConditions.jsp
"The AAdvantage program Terms and Conditions are governed by and to be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas. To the full extent allowed by law, these Terms and Conditions disclaim any duty of good faith and fair dealing as well as any implied contractual terms or obligations."
I doubt that you'd even get the $50 voucher.
Disclaimer: I'm only an internet lawyer (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
That said........for lawyers to make a class action worthwhile there would have to be some potential juice in it and so far it doesn't look like there is. But that, too, could change. Especially if a pattern of behavior established bad faith.
Nov 17, 2015, 10:48 am
#22
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Hate to say this, but remember that the Supreme Court once said not that long ago that same-sex marriage is not a federal question so the notion that these things are etched in stone isn't entirely accurate.
That said........for lawyers to make a class action worthwhile there would have to be some potential juice in it and so far it doesn't look like there is. But that, too, could change. Especially if a pattern of behavior established bad faith.
That said........for lawyers to make a class action worthwhile there would have to be some potential juice in it and so far it doesn't look like there is. But that, too, could change. Especially if a pattern of behavior established bad faith.
FFP's represent great value to those with flexibility and a desire to simply travel in a general direction, e.g., "I'd love to go someplace at a warm beach in the next month or so" rather than someone looking for 6 F seats to Asia for a family wedding on a specific date.
So, for every rant on FT, there's a thousand (or more) quite content people out there who understand that their free ticket and once in a blue moon UG is a treat.
Nov 17, 2015, 10:58 am
#23
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Seattle, 98155
Programs: Now MGM/Hyatt/IHG Gold Previously: DL DM, DL Reserve, Hyatt Diamond, SPG PLAT, M Life PLAT, IHG PLAT
Posts: 649
Hate to say this, but remember that the Supreme Court once said not that long ago that same-sex marriage is not a federal question so the notion that these things are etched in stone isn't entirely accurate.
That said........for lawyers to make a class action worthwhile there would have to be some potential juice in it and so far it doesn't look like there is. But that, too, could change. Especially if a pattern of behavior established bad faith.
That said........for lawyers to make a class action worthwhile there would have to be some potential juice in it and so far it doesn't look like there is. But that, too, could change. Especially if a pattern of behavior established bad faith.
and that's why i was seeing is there a way we can get a change through form in existing structures.
Nov 17, 2015, 11:06 am
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Seattle, 98155
Programs: Now MGM/Hyatt/IHG Gold Previously: DL DM, DL Reserve, Hyatt Diamond, SPG PLAT, M Life PLAT, IHG PLAT
Posts: 649
This might save you some time (and some lawyer fees)
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-462_p8k0.pdf
From page 7 of the decision: "The court held that respondent
had failed to identify any material breach because the
frequent flyer agreement gave Northwest sole discretion to
determine whether a participant had abused the program.
Respondent appealed the dismissal of his breach of the
duty of good faith and fair dealing claim but not the other
claims that the court had dismissed"
It's a long read - but the take away is that there is no expectation of the airline acting in good faith towards the customer.
American's AAdvantage Program even put that in their Terms and Conditions:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/AAdvantage/termsConditions.jsp
"The AAdvantage program Terms and Conditions are governed by and to be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas. To the full extent allowed by law, these Terms and Conditions disclaim any duty of good faith and fair dealing as well as any implied contractual terms or obligations."
I doubt that you'd even get the $50 voucher.
Disclaimer: I'm only an internet lawyer (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-462_p8k0.pdf
From page 7 of the decision: "The court held that respondent
had failed to identify any material breach because the
frequent flyer agreement gave Northwest sole discretion to
determine whether a participant had abused the program.
Respondent appealed the dismissal of his breach of the
duty of good faith and fair dealing claim but not the other
claims that the court had dismissed"
It's a long read - but the take away is that there is no expectation of the airline acting in good faith towards the customer.
American's AAdvantage Program even put that in their Terms and Conditions:
https://www.aa.com/i18n/AAdvantage/termsConditions.jsp
"The AAdvantage program Terms and Conditions are governed by and to be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas. To the full extent allowed by law, these Terms and Conditions disclaim any duty of good faith and fair dealing as well as any implied contractual terms or obligations."
I doubt that you'd even get the $50 voucher.
Disclaimer: I'm only an internet lawyer (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
THE DUTY OF GOOD FAITH CANNOT BE WAIVED OR DISCLAIMED
Although contracting parties may be successful in limiting or defining the scope of obligations owed by the duty of good faith, it is widely recognized that the duty cannot be completely waived or bargained away. [FN11] For example, UCC Section 1-102(3) provides:
The effect of provisions of this act may be varied by agreement, except as otherwise provided in this act and except that the obligations of good faith, diligence, reasonableness and care prescribed by this act may not be disclaimed by agreement but the parties may by agreement determine the standards by which the performance of such obligations is to be measured if such standards are not manifestly unreasonable. [FN12]
Further, with respect to bank deposits and collections, UCC Section 4- 103(1) provides: "the parties to the agreement cannot disclaim a bank's responsibility for its lack of good faith or failure to exercise ordinary care or limit the measure of damages for the lack of failure." [FN13] Further, in non-UCC transactions, liability cannot be waived for recklessness, willfulness, and gross negligence. [FN14]
Here is a solution
might just invite competition by letting international carrier operate some domestic route without the high regulation for foreign carrier.
with air travel getting more common and common, lots of airport also are in history high amount of volume and reaches the high end of capacity, airlines know that there is simply no way to add competition.
like UA is trying to do so at EWR getting all the gates.
Hopefully new ATC and aircraft new system may help for the air space
and the whole NextGen essentially increase the air space that can be use. This will help inviting more companies to possibly launch services and lower prices or find better ways to make the customer have better experiences and services.
I mean who is to say that US wouldn't have a all business airline that have all the priority stuff with all first class stuff and amenities in the future.
All AS First Class paying pax have access to the board room so it is not exactly impossible to have Club access for all if they have enough clubs.
when other airlines mostly fly leisure and other non premium pax with all economy and lowest cost thing like ryan air and the better option easy jet.
Easy jet is like Southwest really in the US while ryan air is more like spirit
Last edited by Canarsie; Nov 18, 2015 at 1:25 pm Reason: Consolidation.
Nov 17, 2015, 11:48 am
#26
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 51
IMHO, good faith would be rolling out a program change at the beginning of a membership cycle. This would allow members who earned status by following the program rules throughout the previous year to enjoy the benefits they earned for a complete cycle.
The timing of the Comfort+ announcement appears to reinforce the feeling that profit maximization and/or annual executive bonuses is/are the only focus if possibly to the detriment of Medallion members. Putting forward Comfort+ changes in September with a January 1 effective date as opposed to the November/March cadence would have given flyers a clear understanding of the upcoming changes but would also give them more time to match/shop/earn status on other carriers possibly to the detriment of the crucial final quarter of Delta's fiscal year.
I remember how hard it was for me to earn FO for the first time and I did it on segments. I had other choices and at times I could get a F on other airlines for the same price as Delta economy fares but purchased Delta. The benefits of FO were enough for me to consolidate my increasing business travel. In that way, Delta got my consolidated business whenever it met my company's purchasing rules and I got FO status and benefits. This year I'll reach PM for the first time and it feels much, much cheaper than expected.
Yes, I agreed to the Medallion rules and regs that said Delta is allowed to change the program at any time. We all did even if you didn't read them. Typically a customer service oriented company doesn't change the rules and raise the price at the same time it tells you to enjoy the enhancements.
The timing of the Comfort+ announcement appears to reinforce the feeling that profit maximization and/or annual executive bonuses is/are the only focus if possibly to the detriment of Medallion members. Putting forward Comfort+ changes in September with a January 1 effective date as opposed to the November/March cadence would have given flyers a clear understanding of the upcoming changes but would also give them more time to match/shop/earn status on other carriers possibly to the detriment of the crucial final quarter of Delta's fiscal year.
I remember how hard it was for me to earn FO for the first time and I did it on segments. I had other choices and at times I could get a F on other airlines for the same price as Delta economy fares but purchased Delta. The benefits of FO were enough for me to consolidate my increasing business travel. In that way, Delta got my consolidated business whenever it met my company's purchasing rules and I got FO status and benefits. This year I'll reach PM for the first time and it feels much, much cheaper than expected.
Yes, I agreed to the Medallion rules and regs that said Delta is allowed to change the program at any time. We all did even if you didn't read them. Typically a customer service oriented company doesn't change the rules and raise the price at the same time it tells you to enjoy the enhancements.
Nov 17, 2015, 12:17 pm
#27
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TPA-MKE-PHX
Programs: Ex DL-DM. MM. TWA-Aviator Plat. HHonors-DVIP, MR-Gold. Nat-Emerald. Avis Chairmn.
Posts: 1,925
I can't by a ticket with S&H Green stamps like I used to either. Ok. I'm oldish. And I just found an unused book the other day.
Nov 17, 2015, 12:20 pm
#28
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SJC
Programs: DL PM MM, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 3,276
Nov 17, 2015, 12:24 pm
#29
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 51
They weren't directly offered by Delta either so not an apples to apples example.
Nov 17, 2015, 1:17 pm
#30
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Seattle, 98155
Programs: Now MGM/Hyatt/IHG Gold Previously: DL DM, DL Reserve, Hyatt Diamond, SPG PLAT, M Life PLAT, IHG PLAT
Posts: 649
IMHO, good faith would be rolling out a program change at the beginning of a membership cycle. This would allow members who earned status by following the program rules throughout the previous year to enjoy the benefits they earned for a complete cycle.
The timing of the Comfort+ announcement appears to reinforce the feeling that profit maximization and/or annual executive bonuses is/are the only focus if possibly to the detriment of Medallion members. Putting forward Comfort+ changes in September with a January 1 effective date as opposed to the November/March cadence would have given flyers a clear understanding of the upcoming changes but would also give them more time to match/shop/earn status on other carriers possibly to the detriment of the crucial final quarter of Delta's fiscal year.
I remember how hard it was for me to earn FO for the first time and I did it on segments. I had other choices and at times I could get a F on other airlines for the same price as Delta economy fares but purchased Delta. The benefits of FO were enough for me to consolidate my increasing business travel. In that way, Delta got my consolidated business whenever it met my company's purchasing rules and I got FO status and benefits. This year I'll reach PM for the first time and it feels much, much cheaper than expected.
Yes, I agreed to the Medallion rules and regs that said Delta is allowed to change the program at any time. We all did even if you didn't read them. Typically a customer service oriented company doesn't change the rules and raise the price at the same time it tells you to enjoy the enhancements.
The timing of the Comfort+ announcement appears to reinforce the feeling that profit maximization and/or annual executive bonuses is/are the only focus if possibly to the detriment of Medallion members. Putting forward Comfort+ changes in September with a January 1 effective date as opposed to the November/March cadence would have given flyers a clear understanding of the upcoming changes but would also give them more time to match/shop/earn status on other carriers possibly to the detriment of the crucial final quarter of Delta's fiscal year.
I remember how hard it was for me to earn FO for the first time and I did it on segments. I had other choices and at times I could get a F on other airlines for the same price as Delta economy fares but purchased Delta. The benefits of FO were enough for me to consolidate my increasing business travel. In that way, Delta got my consolidated business whenever it met my company's purchasing rules and I got FO status and benefits. This year I'll reach PM for the first time and it feels much, much cheaper than expected.
Yes, I agreed to the Medallion rules and regs that said Delta is allowed to change the program at any time. We all did even if you didn't read them. Typically a customer service oriented company doesn't change the rules and raise the price at the same time it tells you to enjoy the enhancements.
that's why IMO they should change it in the beginning of the next membership year coz in
2014 you are earning status for 2015
2015 you are earning status for 2016
if you want to make a negative change in 2016 they have to announce it before 2014 DEC 31
so people can still make their choices for the next year travel and not affect for those for fly the whole 2014 believe what they will get in 2015 but then benefit is cancelled