Sep 3, 2014, 3:39 pm
Last edit by: mbwmbw
Official Response from ExpertFlyer regarding Delta's ability to restrict data:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23465105-post182.html
Check the updated thread at (see the Wiki at the top):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...available.html
You will see that they actually used screenshots of ExpertFlyer. I'm sure someone in DL Corporate just saw this and said it's making a headache for us and not providing any additional value so shut it down.... Almost guarantee it.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23465105-post182.html
Hi folks,
All of us here at ExpertFlyer just want to say thank you for the positive support we've been receiving, both on FT and via email.
Reading some of the posts on this thread it appears there might be some misconceptions on how airline data is distributed. To be clear, a GDS distributes airline data to its customers at the discretion of the airline. The airline-GDS contracts state that the airline controls the flow of data thru the GDS and if an airline decides that they don't want a particular GDS customer, agency or non-agency, to have their data the GDS must block data from being available to a customer if the airline asks them to. As noted in our quoted statement, Delta has already done this with many online travel agencies.
So as a practical matter, in the near term this meant that we had no choice and didn't "cave" as some have speculated, the DL information was going to be withheld with or without our participation. We continue to explore our options but for now, rightly or wrongly, the GDS-agency contracts allow for this as they have the right to modify the content made available to agencies.
We cannot comment on any future plans regarding this specific matter however we will continue to work on behalf of our customers to add as much value as possible to ExpertFlyer.
-The ExpertFlyer.com Team
All of us here at ExpertFlyer just want to say thank you for the positive support we've been receiving, both on FT and via email.
Reading some of the posts on this thread it appears there might be some misconceptions on how airline data is distributed. To be clear, a GDS distributes airline data to its customers at the discretion of the airline. The airline-GDS contracts state that the airline controls the flow of data thru the GDS and if an airline decides that they don't want a particular GDS customer, agency or non-agency, to have their data the GDS must block data from being available to a customer if the airline asks them to. As noted in our quoted statement, Delta has already done this with many online travel agencies.
So as a practical matter, in the near term this meant that we had no choice and didn't "cave" as some have speculated, the DL information was going to be withheld with or without our participation. We continue to explore our options but for now, rightly or wrongly, the GDS-agency contracts allow for this as they have the right to modify the content made available to agencies.
We cannot comment on any future plans regarding this specific matter however we will continue to work on behalf of our customers to add as much value as possible to ExpertFlyer.
-The ExpertFlyer.com Team
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...available.html
You will see that they actually used screenshots of ExpertFlyer. I'm sure someone in DL Corporate just saw this and said it's making a headache for us and not providing any additional value so shut it down.... Almost guarantee it.
DL forces ExpertFlyer to remove ALL data pertaining to DL flights
Sep 2, 2014, 11:09 am
#151
In memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PIT
Programs: DM life is over 2MM PM now & NW MillionAir Wyndham Rewards Plat -Hotels.com Silver -Accor Silver
Posts: 15,408
I checked my EF account, and my annual $99 subscription expires on 10/8, so, I hava month to see if anything changes - I'm not really losing too much. I don't remember if the $99 auto-renews or if I hafto do it manually. I may still keep it at the lowest level, as I still use it for non-DL work stuff.
So, there's KVS & I guess ITA? Sabre at $45 a month? Not! I don't know anything about ITA. I've seen a few posts in this thread referencing ITA. Can anyone give a quick version of the difference, or make a suggestion? I really feel lost without fare bucket availability and fare rules. I wanna sign up for SOMETHING ASAP! I'm thinking about my usual int'l trips, and I feel like a blind person without the info! I hope that's not a politically incorrect analogy, but, I feel certain that others here feel the same way.
So, there's KVS & I guess ITA? Sabre at $45 a month? Not! I don't know anything about ITA. I've seen a few posts in this thread referencing ITA. Can anyone give a quick version of the difference, or make a suggestion? I really feel lost without fare bucket availability and fare rules. I wanna sign up for SOMETHING ASAP! I'm thinking about my usual int'l trips, and I feel like a blind person without the info! I hope that's not a politically incorrect analogy, but, I feel certain that others here feel the same way.
Sep 2, 2014, 11:13 am
#152
Suspended
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Wrong. DL never made the data available to EF. They made it available to the GDS, and they still do. The GDS makes it available to whomever will pay for it, including EF. I'm surprised the GDS didn't push back at DL.
Sep 2, 2014, 11:13 am
#153
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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I checked my EF account, and my annual $99 subscription expires on 10/8, so, I hava month to see if anything changes - I'm not really losing too much. I don't remember if the $99 auto-renews or if I hafto do it manually. I may still keep it at the lowest level, as I still use it for non-DL work stuff.
So, there's KVS & I guess ITA? Sabre at $45 a month? Not! I don't know anything about ITA. I've seen a few posts in this thread referencing ITA. Can anyone give a quick version of the difference, or make a suggestion? I really feel lost without fare bucket availability and fare rules. I wanna sign up for SOMETHING ASAP! I'm thinking about my usual int'l trips, and I feel like a blind person without the info! I hope that's not a politically incorrect analogy, but, I feel certain that others here feel the same way.
So, there's KVS & I guess ITA? Sabre at $45 a month? Not! I don't know anything about ITA. I've seen a few posts in this thread referencing ITA. Can anyone give a quick version of the difference, or make a suggestion? I really feel lost without fare bucket availability and fare rules. I wanna sign up for SOMETHING ASAP! I'm thinking about my usual int'l trips, and I feel like a blind person without the info! I hope that's not a politically incorrect analogy, but, I feel certain that others here feel the same way.
If DL is truly going after all of the services that display fare bucket information, there might not be any good options left other than calling a DL agent and wasting everyone's time. The horrible part is that I'm sure those length-of-call metrics will end up making the call center frontline look bad, rather than sending a message to DL that changes like this are a kick in the pants to their better-informed customers.
Sep 2, 2014, 11:28 am
#154
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
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This is all about offering different fares to different customers online to extract the maximum amount from each and every customer based upon their perceived ability to pay. Obviously this can only be done by driving customers exclusively to the airline's own website and removing any fare visibility on 3rd party sites. Delta is at the forefront of this consumer unfriendly action, but as in any good oligopoly all the others will follow suit soon enough.
Sep 2, 2014, 11:34 am
#155
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Twin Cities
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This was my thought exactly. Soon based on your cookies, history, credit info and whatever else they have stored up about you you are going to get different quotes for the exact same flights with the exact same theoretical amount of availability even searching at the exact same time. A DM who spends a fair bit will get a higher price because they know you'll probably pay, someone who they've pegged as price-conscious will pay the minimum, even if they are searching the same flight at the same time. This should be illegal but they will get away with it.
Sep 2, 2014, 12:27 pm
#156
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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I checked my EF account, and my annual $99 subscription expires on 10/8, so, I hava month to see if anything changes - I'm not really losing too much. I don't remember if the $99 auto-renews or if I hafto do it manually. I may still keep it at the lowest level, as I still use it for non-DL work stuff.
So, there's KVS & I guess ITA? Sabre at $45 a month? Not! I don't know anything about ITA. I've seen a few posts in this thread referencing ITA. Can anyone give a quick version of the difference, or make a suggestion? I really feel lost without fare bucket availability and fare rules. I wanna sign up for SOMETHING ASAP! I'm thinking about my usual int'l trips, and I feel like a blind person without the info! I hope that's not a politically incorrect analogy, but, I feel certain that others here feel the same way.
So, there's KVS & I guess ITA? Sabre at $45 a month? Not! I don't know anything about ITA. I've seen a few posts in this thread referencing ITA. Can anyone give a quick version of the difference, or make a suggestion? I really feel lost without fare bucket availability and fare rules. I wanna sign up for SOMETHING ASAP! I'm thinking about my usual int'l trips, and I feel like a blind person without the info! I hope that's not a politically incorrect analogy, but, I feel certain that others here feel the same way.
ITA won't help you much. It basically lets you price itineraries, and not a whole lot else. No availability displays, etc.
Sep 2, 2014, 12:46 pm
#157
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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This was my thought exactly. Soon based on your cookies, history, credit info and whatever else they have stored up about you you are going to get different quotes for the exact same flights with the exact same theoretical amount of availability even searching at the exact same time. A DM who spends a fair bit will get a higher price because they know you'll probably pay, someone who they've pegged as price-conscious will pay the minimum, even if they are searching the same flight at the same time. This should be illegal but they will get away with it.
Sep 2, 2014, 12:48 pm
#158
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: OKC
Programs: DL DM/2.768MM, Global Entry, Titanium_Marriott, GHertz
Posts: 6,751
As another data point, here is the response I got from my second email when we recently lost access to DL's OP inventory:
"We apologize for any confusion with our previous response. We do not provide the number of seats available for any upgrade, including mileage, certificate and complimentary upgrades. If you need any additional assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us.
Dr. Xeno, your comments are instrumental to the improvement of our overall service. I realize you have a choice in airlines and I would like to thank you for your longstanding support as Diamond Medallion and an almost two Million Miler."
"We apologize for any confusion with our previous response. We do not provide the number of seats available for any upgrade, including mileage, certificate and complimentary upgrades. If you need any additional assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us.
Dr. Xeno, your comments are instrumental to the improvement of our overall service. I realize you have a choice in airlines and I would like to thank you for your longstanding support as Diamond Medallion and an almost two Million Miler."
Sep 2, 2014, 1:21 pm
#160
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MCO
Programs: AA EXP, United PS, Hyatt Explorist, Marriott Titanium, Wyndham Gold, Club Carlson Gold, Amtrak
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Oh, this is rich. I tweet @DeltaAssist to see if there is OP inventory for a GUC. Here's the response:
Are you kidding me? It's a yes/no answer.
My response:
Pls ctc the Diamond Medallion Desk at 877-220-6888 to check on award seat availability. *DH
My response:
@DeltaAssist OK, DL. @AmericanAir, Would you let me know via Twitter if I could use one of your system-wide upgrades on a flight?
Sep 2, 2014, 1:32 pm
#161
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: ATL
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Must be dependent on who at DeltaAssist you get. I've been sending very complex questions about availability and have been getting detailed answers back from them without calling the DM line.
Sep 2, 2014, 1:39 pm
#162
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MCO
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Posts: 1,254
Some responses - this guy is getting snarky:
AA, meanwhile, has said they'd be happy to help. Which has prompted Mr. DH to begin checking availability for me. Really makes me feel valued.
I can't speak on behalf of AA, but I don't think they accept are upgrade certificates. *DH
Sep 2, 2014, 1:47 pm
#163
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: OKC
Programs: DL DM/2.768MM, Global Entry, Titanium_Marriott, GHertz
Posts: 6,751
This is what I get from @DeltaAssist which underscores DL lack of willingness to help us on any front when it comes to searching for OP inventory for SWU/SM.
Sep 2, 2014, 2:43 pm
#165
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Twin Cities
Programs: Delta DM MM, IHG Plat, Hilton DM, Marriott SE, Emerald EE, Oakdale Gun Club, NRA & GOA Life Member
Posts: 3,870
Scraping other lists to create an aggregate list is older than the web. It's also done for news headline sites and a variety of "deals" sites.
Where this gets messy is that Delta is the only source that can originate Delta flight and fare information. Delta is not a third-party in this situation. It's a first-party information source and producer of its flight "product." It can put all sorts of obstacles in the way of others re-purposing its own information, legal (legit or threat) and structural.
(I'm reminded -- and this is not a direct parallel -- of map makers and dictionary publishers who purposely would include a fake town or a fake word definition just to see who was copying their content without permission. Let's hope airlines don't go down that path.)
I'm not arguing in favor of what Delta has done. I think they've gone over the control-freak cliff, and it will affect my upcoming travel on Delta because I value information transparency in making plans. I'm just pointing out that Delta has the ultimate control over how easy they make it for others to access its information and how many workarounds are required. ExpertFlyer may have simply been an easy target.
Where this gets messy is that Delta is the only source that can originate Delta flight and fare information. Delta is not a third-party in this situation. It's a first-party information source and producer of its flight "product." It can put all sorts of obstacles in the way of others re-purposing its own information, legal (legit or threat) and structural.
(I'm reminded -- and this is not a direct parallel -- of map makers and dictionary publishers who purposely would include a fake town or a fake word definition just to see who was copying their content without permission. Let's hope airlines don't go down that path.)
I'm not arguing in favor of what Delta has done. I think they've gone over the control-freak cliff, and it will affect my upcoming travel on Delta because I value information transparency in making plans. I'm just pointing out that Delta has the ultimate control over how easy they make it for others to access its information and how many workarounds are required. ExpertFlyer may have simply been an easy target.