RealHJ

Now that KE has the online URL that shows near real time (cached w/in last <24 hours) award availability flight-by-flight, day-by-day, it is easy to see what is really available. However, it seems that DL has some pretty nasty blocking in place of KE awards.

One specific flight I've been trying to book for months. Every time I go to:
http://www.koreanair.com/local/na/gp...p_seat_ifr.jsp
I see it as available in the class of service I want. But, every time I call DL, I am told it's not available - though it clearly is.

Is anyone aware of just how extensive is this DL blocking of KE awards (during the few days when DL doesn't impose arbitrary worldwide blackouts on KE flights, when KE has higher mileage just for a specific market/direction)? Any way to get around it (I guess not)? And what is it based on (i.e. any way to see what is the KE availability after DL blocking it online, as it obviously doesn't match the real KE award availability as KE shows online now w/o needing to log-in or have enough miles to book)?

And any other reports of flights that you see as available for award in the class of service you want on KE, but DL claims is not available?

MR_MAMA

It might not be available for DL awards but be available for KE award flyers. Just because it shows it is available doesn't mean DL gets it.

Often1

What leads you to believe that DL is "blocking" KE awards? Has KE confirmed to you that it is making the seats available to DL for DL awards? All you have told us is that there are seats available on KE for KE awards.

RealHJ

I understand. I just wonder if anyone knows how extensive is this DL (or be it KE to DL, or KE to SkyTeam) blocking? And any way to see availability after that blocking (now that KE shows it prior to the blocking)?

bpe

It's probably like how DL has low, medium and high awards, and only the low awards are available for SkyTeam/partners to book. Not sure how KE manages their awards, but they probably have something similar, even if it's only at one redemption level.

NYBanker

KE blacks out certain flights on certain dates for award travel.

DL's systems couldn't handle date/flight specific blackouts...so on any day that KE has any flight blacked out for award travel, DL blacks out all of KE for the day.

I understand this is over 100 days a year, though I've never seen a definitive list of the days.

If KE has different award levels, you would need to see availability in their lowest category for a given cabin to be potentially eligible for a DL award. Note that first class awards are never available using DL miles on KE.

This limitation really, really diminishes the value of KE's participation in ST for the average DL flyer.

aubreyfromwheaton

There's no Z in SkyTeam?

tkey75

It's a really oddball set of dates, too, unless I don't understand something happening in Korea. For example, I got an outbound JFK-ICN-SYD on KE right around the first of the year, but the return in the middle of Feb was blacked out.

blug

This is not a proof. Many airlines (like LX, SQ, etc) have different award inventory for their own members than that for their partner airlines.

The only way to prove it is finding a case where another KE's parter (like AF) can book an award seat, but DL can't.

s1c3r1a1b3b3l1e1

Korean holidays are different than American holidays with their most significant ones being Lunar New Year (in February/March usually) and Chuseok (in September/October usually).

RealHJ

KE has two levels. Low and high. When KE has high mileage (during predefined dates for predefined markets/directions) then DL blacks it out worldwide.

So, this is already taken care of by the blackout dates.

So, this is not it. The issue is that KE has availability (at the usual mileage) during dates that DL has not blacked out for KE worldwide, but DL doesn't show it.

BTW, for more info on KE mileage requirements and blackout dates, see www.koreanair.com

RealHJ

Not true. DL blacks out KE for ALL flights worldwide on a lot of dates. KE itself has no blackout dates, ever. It has two mileage levels. During certain dates for certain markets/directions it charges higher mileage. When KE does so, then DL blocks out KE awards worldwide (i.e. mostly for markets/directions where KE charges normal and not the higher mileage).

Basically, KE higher milage (just for a few markets/directions) = DL KE blocking worldwide for that day.

You can see the list in threads here where I've posted it on FT, or simply go to delta.com and go to the fare rules for any int'l non-DL dummy award booking, where DL will show all the KE, CI and MU blackout dates for the next year+. It is really easy to see the list and takes less than 60 seconds to pull it up on delta.com (or find it here in FT).

mnredfox

I wish DL would just clean up this mess about blackouts. To this day it has not been addressed, and I can gaurantee you that 99% of all DL agents have no clue about the true rules about KE blackout dates, how they pertain to specific flights on specific routes etc.

Instead, if you try to book any itin with KE on it, DL will often just pull the "it's a KE blackout" excuse when the computer their on bombs...

mtkeller

Of course the agents won't know about the true nature, because they only know what's in the fare rules. (I booked a KE award, and the agent started by pulling up the fare rules and checking the blackout dates, which I'd already done and knew not to ask for KE on the return, as it was within DL's interpretation of the blackout dates.) The fare rules are set up to apply the blanket blackout, because DL either (1) thinks that its agents can't understand the complexities of blacking out only certain types of flights at certain times of the year, (2) has IT that can't handle enforcing blackout dates for only Korean domestic flights and the like, or (3) doesn't want to make the flights available to its members. Here's the list of KE, MU, and CI blackout dates DL is applying.

I do agree that this isn't proof that DL is blocking KE awards. Unless we can start seeing the inventory bookable using other ST member miles, we don't know that the flights are being made available to ST bookings, just SkyPass members. There's no documentation that all KE low-level awards are made available for SkyTeam booking. Part of the issue is that agents don't know what to do with KE because most people don't even try to book the awards. I had an agent who said she almost never books them, because of the blackouts, and when it confirmed on DL's end but didn't come back confirmed from KE right away, she put it on hold for 48 hours for me. She said there were a few people who could tell her if it was good to go or not, but they were all away from their desks at the time.

RealHJ

Very true. And also, Dullta's own internal documentation is dead wrong. I had an agent who followed the internal documentation of how to check availability and book KE and she couldn't do it. Then she called, escalated twice, and was told to just ignore the documentation, as it is dead wrong, and was told how to do it properly. She also told me how to do it and I took notes of it to tell it to future agents. But a part of the problem here is that Dullta is knowingly and purposefully giving its agents outright wrong instructions on how to book KE (no doubt with a design to ensure that there are as few as possible, if any, KE bookings - as most pax will then just give up when falsely told "not available").