c_d

Aww, W0X0F_2p2, you finally made it. ^

This is a gentle reminder that you owe my employer one days pay!

Thank you for your posts here @FT and p2p, it's a great read for all the interested frequent travelers. Keep it going!

W0X0F_2p2

I've heard the opinion expressed that NY crews are more fun (not as uptight) as ATL crews, but I've flown with plenty of great ATL crews.

You are right about our crew room at JFK. It's way too small and in disrepair and I doubt Atlanta crews would put up with it. But every time the discussion comes up about spending some money to upgrade it, the explanation comes back that we may be changing terminals in the next year or so and thus the expenditure makes no sense at this time. Meanwhile, the ATL crew rooms (there are two!...domestic and international) have been upgraded and have probably 10 times the space.


Definitely...and we just had a bid to allow pilots to change equipment and domiciles, so I'll soon find out if I can stay where I am.

I can't imagine a 777 ever being in a flat spin. How did they even put it in this situation? Don't feel too bad about not recovering from it.

This sounds like a great program.

I did stand ups when I flew at ACA and, you're right, some pilots loved them and some hated them. I flew them for about 6 months at one time and I really liked the lifestyle...it was like getting paid to go take a nap somewhere. I felt like I had every day off.

(For those unfamiliar, "standup" was our term for continuous duty overnights. We would depart at, say, 10 pm for BGM. Arrive at 11:15 pm and then be back at 0530 for the return to IAD. Because we had less than 8 hours on the ground it wasn't considered "rest" by FAA rules. So even though we went to a hotel and got maybe 5 hours of sleep, we were actually on duty for the entire night. At ACA we got paid half-duty; i.e. if we were on duty for 12 hours, we got 6 hours of flight pay...pretty good for a round trip to BGM).

To give myself an extra 15 minutes of sleep at the out-station, I shaved my head that summer. Thus, I didn't need to shower and shampoo. Just a quick washrag for the face, spritz the pits, and I was ready to dress and go (and then take a leisurely hot shower back home after my 'day' was done).


Can't do much about how young someone looks, but the way they present themselves in the uniform is an issue that comes up a lot. While on furlough from Delta, I went back to ACA and ultimately landed the job of chief pilot at IAD. It was a great job, but the aspect of it I hated was when I had to be the 'uniform police' and tell some pilot he wasn't presenting the right image. The move I hated was when I saw a young pilot in uniform with a backpack slung across a shoulder. Getting them to wear their hats was also an on-going battle (and I've got to admit, I would often turn a blind eye rather than get into something so petty).

OK, maybe it wasn't fear in your case, but for many passengers that was the overriding concern. I used to hear it from them time and time again. I even had a lady get off my J-32 at LGA because she was terrified. I calmed her down and assured her that she didn't have to go with us and that we would let her off. She took me up on it.

As for being too slow, it really didn't matter for the short stage lengths they were used for in most cases. IAD-SCE; IAD-PIT; IAD-RIC; IAD-CHO. All of these are 45 minutes or less flying time and an RJ can't shave more than 10 minutes off the entire flight.


That's one of the funniest stories I've heard in a while!

Thanks John!

I'm glad to chime in and especially answer questions about the art and science of flying, or even the day to day routine of the job. But I'm not really too keen on getting involved in the 'politics' of the airline business, for a couple of reasons. After all, I have no expertise there and it would just be one more opinion. Being a pilot doesn't necessarily give me any insight into these other topics (e.g. airport security, company strategy, route structures).

It sounds like a very sharp group of participants over here in FT and I think I can learn a lot from you guys about how to make passengers happier.

Absolutely! Bob Hepp, a friend of mine, has a flight school with planes at Manassas and Leesburg. Bob is a retired Army officer and I flew with him at ACA. When I was chief pilot there, he was one of my best Captains and was very passenger oriented. I rent planes from him every few months to stay current in light aircraft.

Check out their website: www.aviationadventures.com (Bob is 2nd from left in the picture there) or call 703-777-6030 (Leesburg) or 703-530-7737 (Manassas). Tell Bob that Steve sent you (if that isn't sufficient, tell him I was the Steve who was the CP at IAD). Bob is at Manassas. If you call Leesburg, talk to Ray de Hahn...also a former ACA/Independence pilot.

That was a great group of people to work with and we've already had one reunion...I think another is planned for this June.

Gargoyle

He also had a lot of weight and balance issues. The Islander is a 10-seater, but well-to-do Samoans are sometimes large, and had lots of baggage; some short grass runways, often he'd have to hold to seven pax and leave three empty seats and still just get off the ground.

One of the "terminals" was a palm tree with a sign nailed to it, and was listed as an international airport terminal. Pax would be sitting on the ground or on their bags when he landed and taxied up to them. It was mid 1970's, he was getting paid something like $7.50 or $9.00 per hour, plus housing and use of a rusted out two year old Honda. (the salt air rusts them quickly).

W0X0F_2p2

I can believe it! I'm familiar with both the Islander and Samoans. (I lived in Hawaii for 2 years and there was a Samoan population there.)


For a young guy building time, it sounds wonderful. I'll bet he has fond memories of that time.

motytrah

Love the thread on the other board. I thought the bit about Leslie Nielsen popping his head into the cockpit and saying "We're counting on you."

A lot of feel for you guys. It's never easy to be asked to do the same job for less when the guys at the top collect more. And not just the pilots. I know I feel bad for the FAs too since they can be replaced fair easier than pilots and it shows in the cuts.

Burj

Wow! Good luck! I hope it works out for you!

Back when you did them how strict were the rules during your 5-6 hours since you were still technically on duty?

There was a case of a pilot and F/A at a NW regional who got into some "trouble" during one of their stand ups and their regional implemented some pretty strict rules... Crew can't tell non-employees (including local family) where they were staying during their stand-up. Crew can't get into a vehicle that wasn't provided by the airline/airport/hotel (so no private taxi rides anywhere)...etc...

What are the rules at Delta (or ACA) in terms of uniforms? When is the hat suppose to be worn? Is indoors o.k. and is an airport considered "indoors"?

(I had lots of friends in ROTC and was amazed at all the rules regarding uniforms...)

Burj

Just saw this post in another thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13139270-post26.html

How is this possible? (Claimed flight was delayed because ATC didn't have record of the flight plan!)

W0X0F_2p2

Rules like that are going to vary from one company to the next. Though the company provides a hotel during a layover, there's no requirement that the crew member actually use it. When I was doing stand-ups at ACA, my only responsibility was to be at the plane for the next flight. This applies to a prolonged "sit" during the day.

For example, you do a round trip to BUF and then have a scheduled 3 hour sit at IAD before doing a round trip to ORF. We called this a "productivity break". I am not required to be anywhere specific during this time and I'm also not even required to be contactable. I just need to be at the plane in time to get the next flight out on time.


Unlike the military, the airlines like to see the hat worn indoors (inside the terminal). I think the only place where we're in public view that the company does not require it to be worn is on the airplane itself. This rule is often flouted. I've flown with pilots who bring their hat with them on a trip and it never, I mean never, goes on their head. They put it on top of their roll-aboard and wheel it through the terminal. They'll take that hat to Moscow and back and never wear it.

The uniform coat is supposed to be worn from April 1 to November 1 (optional the rest of the year), but there is an exception if we're headed for a tropical destination.

Long sleeve uniform shirts are only allowed with the coat.

W0X0F_2p2

I've had this experience a handful of times at both ACA and Delta (on the shuttle). You contact Clearance Delivery for your clearance and they say "We have no record of any such flight." Oversight by the company in filing it? Lost in the "bit bucket" somewhere? Never did find out...just contacted our dispatcher to re-file the flight plan. This process usually causes only a short (10-15 minute) delay.

jfulcher

Are you based out of SUX? Holy cow I flew the Saabs and had the same experience. I guess I'm just not cut out for small planes.

gelaro

Low time SEL ticket here. It's been more than 15 years since I have flown myself, but I miss it. Best job I ever had was working on the line at GMU ... Except the day that I backed a Mitsubishi Diamond into a hangar wall. Fortunately, it was my first (and only) mistake in towing so I caught a break (along with a two week ban from towing).

I have loved reading the the other thread, but since I am only a member here, hopefully you and the others won't mind if I ask a couple of questions.

When it comes to commuting, are you a "must ride" (I think they call them)? Can you bump paying passengers? I have always wondered about people who don't live at their base, and what happens if they can't make it due to full flights or weather or whatever. I think ground crew can't fly NRSA on days they work, but I suppose commuting to work is a different story.

Why the switch to Mach instead of IAS at altitude? I saw you say something about it, but I didn't see a reason.

Does a jet with winglets handle differently than one without? Can you tell a difference?

Thanks

Tennisbum

For me, it wasn't fear (fortunately I lack the fear-of-flying gene), but the noise and vibration. I can still remember a flight from TLH to ATL, at the end of which I felt so sick (unfortunately I do have the fear-of-throwing-up gene) that it was years before I flew any small plane again.

But, more importantly, welcome to FT. Yours is a refreshingly candid voice from DL, and I hope that the consequences of posting here are entirely positive for you.

atldlff

I am not completely sure I can answer the question. What I do remember it was after back to back encounters with Wake Turbulence and we were in a 15% left bank. I had just recovered from the first bout when it hit again, and second encounter was more stronger that the first. Add in zero visibility, and then all hell broke loose. I remember trying to fight against the stick shaking but it was next to impossible. I couldn't see the ground until we were at 200'. I don't think any qualified pilot for that actual aircraft would encounter the same scenario, and I know for certain that I wasn't trained to handle that in a large aircraft. I personally blame the sweat pouring from my palms. Those simulators are very realistic!

P.S. Keep in mind this was after a bird strike at takeoff, engine out landing, a landing with a strong windshear, and other fun events. I can understand why pilots dread the simulator. For fun, it is a blast and a dream come true, as a checkride, I am sure it can be a dreaded event.


I would invite others that attended comment as well. I personally think it was one of the most interesting and fun aviation related programs I have ever been involved in. I know several people really enjoyed the explanation why your flight would be delayed for weather on a flight from ATL to JFK when the weather in both locations appeared to be clear...

W0X0F_2p2

Commuters take their chances; they are not "must ride"...they are simply riding space available (Space A they call it). It's up to the commuter to get to work and if, for example, the forecast is for a snow storm tomorrow and I'm supposed to fly that day, then I had better commute up the day before and get a hotel room (or stay in a crash pad if I have one).

On a typical commute day, the crew member needs to have backup options in case the primary flight is delayed or cancels. About a month ago I checked flights to NY and the only one that looked good was the first flight out in the morning (0630). So I took it even though my report time wasn't until 4 pm. (I napped in the crew room before starting my day.)

If a pilot ends up not making it in spite of having backups, then he will most likely not be subject to any disciplinary measures (again, as long as it can be demonstrated that his flights showed room on them and he had backups), but of course will lose the pay for the trip.

There are those who have little sympathy for commuters. After all, that pilot chooses not to live at his domicile. But after you've been in this business for a while and get involuntarily displaced to another base, or had your base close, you might decide to give your family some stability and pick a place you want to live rather than where you're told to live.


As altitude increases a given IAS will represent a higher mach number. The airplane has a limiting IAS, called VMO, and it also has a limiting mach speed, called MMO. VMO is a structural limitation of the airframe; i.e. go faster than this and things might start coming apart (you'd probably have to exceed it by a good bit). MMO exists because of the effects of supersonic airflow over the wing. (The airflow over the wing is accelerated by the camber of the wing and at some points will be faster than the airflow being indicated.) Supersonic airflow causes shockwaves that might cause undesirable flight characteristics, such as Mach tuck in which the nose wants to pitch downward (perhaps violently).

Down low, we'll exceed VMO before getting close to MMO and so we use IAS as our reference. Up high, we switch to Mach because we're in the regime where it's possible to exceed MMO.

[Disclaimer: This explanation is my understanding of this issue, but I was a math major, not an aerodynamic engineer, so I could be wrong.]


Honestly, I can't tell by the feel of the planes. Where the difference really shows up is in fuel consumption. We have a handful of 767-300ERs with winglets and they use several thousand pounds less fuel than the other ERs on a typical ocean crossing.

I once heard (and I'm not sure if this is true) that on the 757, the winglets save fuel for any flight of more than 4 hours. Less than that and the cost (in fuel) to lift the winglets to altitude exceeds the savings from aerodynamic efficiency.

Thank you. This is a very hospitable group on this forum and it's a pleasure join in.

Your observations are right on the mark. The sim can be fun if there's no jeopardy attached. I used to be a sim instructor at my previous airline and developed an affection for the simulator. It's one of the greatest video games of all time. Once you realize that it's computer driven (multiple computers to handle the visuals and the motion), you can figure out what it "likes", i.e. how to fly it.

It can also be a grueling experience. I like the term that some Navy pilots use to describe night carrier landings: "practice bleeding". International pilots get to visit the sim twice a year; I have two days coming up in March.

Burj

Have you had much experience with crash pads? I think this is one aspect that is pretty unique to airline employment.

I've seen little snippets about them here and there in the media and talked to a few pilots who discuss different setups, some where it is almost like a hostel where you "hot bed" (no pre-assigned bed/room)...etc... I met one family what lived next door to a suburban home used as a crash pad and their one complaint was seeing so many people come and go throughout the day and night...

What are the mechanics, how do you reserve a bed/spot? How much does it cost? Who actually RUNS the crash pad, pays the rent, utilities, mortgage, etc?


It has been MANY years since my undergrad aerodynamic courses...BUT one thing I remember is the professor pointing out older planes with older wings have much less efficient wing designs and that is why their retro-fit winglets are HUGE (and there-fore heavy). In comparison newer plane/wings are better designed to not need winglets but just highly raked wingtips that do the same job. We had a problem set where we had to do some quick calculations to justify when adding winglets made sense and it was not an easy calculation as there were lots of variable to optimize in terms of shape vs size vs weight vs efficiency