rankourabu

I havent transferred in CVG in 5 years until today.
Wow, what a ghost town!!!!

Watchful

I took it - that if DL were to de-emphasize MSP and/or DTW - they would lose customers to AA or UA because of the ORD hub (rather than those folks choosing another DL hub). :-:

pbarnette

But ORD's int'l traffic grew from 2000 to 2007, while MSP and DTW's int'l traffic shrunk - a period which pre-dates the merger. If the concern is that cuts in int'l capacity out of either airport would lead to a loss of customers, then I would think we would have already seen evidence of this, given that ORD has always had primacy on such routes out of the Midwest and it hasn't, frankly, been close.

Bear in mind, I don't think that either airport is in any near-term danger of being de-hubbed - I was just responding to a claim that there is a huge risk of losing Midwest customers to ORD, when I would think we would have already seen that. I have no idea what the long-term might bring, but I see no evidence that either MSP or DTW will be de-hubbed anytime soon. My point was simply that people want to make it seem as if JFK or ATL were replacing DTW or MSP as international hubs, when the reality is that neither DTW nor MSP were ever large-scale international hubs in the first place. Perhaps that is why these rumors get started? When you have so few destinations and so few departures, each tweak to the schedule is magnified beyond being a simple capacity adjustment? So switching to a 763 becomes de-hubbing. Dropping a flight to AMS becomes the end of the world.

Well, I'm not counting HNL, since it isn't international, and I wasn't counting non-DL flights. I also wasn't counting future/new service, since the assertion/fear/rumor is that DTW and MSP would lose service post-merger to ATL and JFK, and new flights don't really support that claim. That leaves, LHR, CDG, FCO, AMS, NRT, FRA, PVG, and NGO, which was my 8.

BF263533

By my statement: "But it is better than flying US Air through CLT which is a decent hub," I am stating that it is better to fly Delta rather than US because of the poor service I received overall on US, notwithstanding the ATL congestion issues. Delta has far better service than US, but CLT was an easier hub where I had no misconnections, compared to ATL where I was running into too frequent misconnections. In 2009 I minimized the ATL misconnection issue by aiming for a minimum 2 hour connection time.

If US air cleaned up it act, I would likely switch back to it to avoid ATL.

Allanf

DTW and MSP sure seem secure as hubs since ORD is maxed out and DL will not maintain their customer loyalty / base if they ask passengers to fly from northern cities to ATL on a CRJ-200 - the aircraft of their choice right now for most flights from GRB and a lot of other smaller cities.

bwhite

In January GRB has 1 mainline / 4 RJ flights to DTW and 2 mainline / 3 RJ flights to MSP. It's already favors the RJ but I feel your pain.

I recently paid a small premium to avoid an RJ flight connection through DTW for a future routing where I chose going through ATL on mainline. I would expect no less from someone up North. BAN THE RJ!!!!!

FLLDL

Agree 100%. MSP is very poorly laid out for connections. Seems to have been built with little or no overall plan.

DTW is the best connecting hub in the DL network, both because it is new and because it is underused. ATL suffers mainly because of its sheer size. ATL's layout is ideal for connections, but unfortunately moving walkways were not included in the design, which can be a killer if connecting between the far ends of concourses.

I foresee a gradual de-emphasis on MSP and MEM as it seems unlear what their role is in the new network. MSP just seems to be the odd man out.

MEM could be useful for TX service, but it lacks the connections to the rest of the network to perform this role efficiently, without having a ton of overlap with ATL. For example, from the 3 major airports here in South Florida, there are a grand total of 2 flights to MEM per day. Tough to beat the 30+ DL flights to ATL per day as far as connections/frequencies go.

SchmutzigMSP

I like how you first said MSP is poorly laid out for connections, then said ATL is ideal for connections, but then gave one of the same reasons I did for why ATL is bad for connections.

At MSP, you always have two options if you have to make one of the rare "long connections" (C/F Concourse -> F/C Concourse). You can either take the Concourse Connector (with moving walkways) which connects the C & G Concourses, or take the tram on C to get you to the "Northstar Crossing" area with the shops, Chili's Too restaurant, etc. and cut over through that area.

Again, for most people this connection will take a maximum of 15 minutes, usually less. Most connections at MSP, however, remain on the same concourse or are to an adjacent concourse (ex: A/B <-> C, C <-> D, F <-> G, etc.). And the Concourses themselves at MSP are either wider (in the case of C/G) or simply have fewer people to wade through than ATL.

And if you've never connected through MSP (or only done it once or twice), I think you need to experience it a little more to make a final conclusion. When I first looked at a map for ATL, it sure looked easy and quick to connect there. Then I started doing it, and realized that a number of factors make ATL connections take longer than the map indicates they should. Similarly, while MSP may look "poorly laid out" on a map, if you utilize the tools they give you to transit the terminal -- namely multiple routing options and people movers -- then you can make connections quite quickly.

Lemurs

I'll second this post. While I am not a fan of either airport as a connecting airport (I've done both MSP and ATL dozens of times), if you check the map and take the fastest route (which isn't always obvious, I'll admit) you can get from one end of MSP to the other in 15 minutes without running. ATL the best I have ever done on an E33-to-T2-like connection is 20 minutes, and that was with DESPERATE running. Normally it's more like 25-30. This is the primary reason I find it laughable that DL ever considers a 40m connection in ATL as a legal connection. They're just guessing that the gate situation will work out in that case, and if you get screwed...well, they have your money already, so no big deal.

As pointed out, ATL has a fantastic layout for a massive connecting airport, but it's missing the one piece of infrastructure that would make it actually work: People movers. The shortsightedness of this is stunning.

DTW is fantastic. Best connecting hub in the US, by leaps and bounds. Shame I never go through there.

socrates

yes...are you???

Watchful

+1 imho ^

DLdweeb

I used to think MSP was poorly laid out, however after having been there a few times I like it now. It's like a large square, and when you are used to it it's pretty easy to get around. It has a few nice bars as well.....

TWAB747nomore

in terms of getting screwed on connecting flights the airline in general set there flight schedules to create potential misconnects which allows them to overbook flights and get aways with it.

DTW : didn't northwest put a ton of money into that airport recently???? But has anyone noticed the changes already occuring in the Flight schedules just since the first of the year some flights to dca that used to be on an NW 757 are now on an RJ or a Bus

it terms of the hub situation offically delta is say very little. However, the airlines strategic analysts have to know that keeping all of the NW hubs is not a viable option. in the end i hate to say it but Delta will abandon large portions of NWA route network domestic and stick to the delta route network, but i hope not.

CVG: i always thought it was a decent airport have connected through there several times but it just does not fit anymore. correct me if i am wrong but it only has one international flight so it was never a big international hub . CONSENUS which i whole heartedly agree with (((CLOSED )))) bye bye CVG

NYC the most entertaining subject So what is delta going to do for PAx that buy a ticket at really low cost and have them fly into LGA and connect onto INTL flight out of JFK. I see a lot of future headaches coming from the Hubbing up new york but it could work.

SLC the Center for delta in the west this hub will continue to grow and is here for the duration


MEM older airport in hte NWA system was similar to the CVG hub for delta but its uses are limited I don't think it has any major INTL longhual routes it was mainly a DC9 domestic hub.

ATL no need to even mention but it is funny how little some people know about airport hub operations but it is all good.

My crystal ball tells me that in the near future their will be a lot of retrenching done by delta. the Real question is where beside CVG and possbily MEM

veliger

Lay off the crack pipe, no one in their right mind would choose to connect through ATL over any other major hub in the US! The only good thing about ATL is that you don’t have to walk much because of the trains, so I guess that's good if you have trouble walking. The other hub that comes to mind with a similar train setup, DEN, makes ATL look like a third world airport from the 70's.

As someone from Maine with zero bias between DAL hubs, I can't believe anyone would pick ATL over MSP or especially DTW. I believe I flew through just about every major hub in the US last year, and by a wide margin DTW is the best place to be with time to kill. The restaurants are fantastic (Sushi!), the concourses are wide and bright, and I love the fountain and light-show tunnel.

ATL is a hell-hole. Narrow dirty concourses, crappy food options (deep fried southern gruel anyone?) and the entire place reeks of mildew and smoke! Only ATL could make me wish to connect through ORD! Why can’t they get rid of that musty mildew smell in ATL? It is especially bad in the US Air concourse.

ScottinMEM

MEM has had a non-stop flight to AMS since 1995. It's daily right now, though has been cut back to 5x week at some points. That is and has been the only major international route.

I wouldn't underestimate the role airport costs will play in this. As someone mentioned earlier, MEM charges no PFC; Delta's other hubs charge $4.50/passenger except CVG, which charges $3. From a connecting passenger standpoint, that makes MEM a bit more attractive. Not to mention the capacity and relatively good weather.

Of course MEM definitely does not have the level of O&D traffic that the other hubs have.