mrp20

this is also something to watch out for with ATMs abroad, too--even with ATMs that dispense local currency, and even though there's not much that can be done to avoid it.

you might expect these sorts of shenanigans if you're getting your home currency at a foreign bank's ATM, but this happened to me recently while withdrawing mexican pesos from an ATM in mexico with a US debit card.

after recognizing a US debit card and without asking or notifying me, the ATM's bank apparently conducted the transaction in dollars it later claimed it was buying at some awful rate and (on top of that) passing along *their* foreign transaction fee to me--all while only showing only the amounts you're taking out in local currency on the screen. i don't remember the name of the bank anymore, but it was not a small or shady-looking ATM in a small town, either.

when you get home or check online, you see a bigger charge than you made and find out from your bank that the ATM charged you for the local currency you took out **in USD**. so you pay for the foreign bank to first "buy" the USD it charges to your bank at lousy rates in addition to the transaction fee and paying the foreign bank's foreign transaction fee. and if you have a crappy bank at home, your bank may still have charge you a foreign transaction fee on top of that (because it's a foreign bank, even though it's in dollars) and/or not refund the ATM surcharge. but even if they *do* refund the surcharge, i'm not aware of any banks that automatically refund you for a foreign ATM's use of usurious foreign exchange rates...

i was lucky to have saved my ATM receipts in this case, and a phone call and scanning/emailing my receipts to my bank fixed it in a jiffy, saving me more than $75 in bogus and hidden fees charged to take out only ~$500 in mexican pesos to pay for scuba diving in cash (on top of their usual ATM fee refund), which i had ironically done to avoid the dive shop's 5% surcharge for accepting credit card payments!

travelinfoo

Wow! Thanks for sharing this scam! Sorry you had to go thru all that.

I thought the merchant/bank was required to give you a choice of local currency or your home currency BEFORE making the transaction. Not giving you a choice is supposed to violate the rules, giving the person grounds to have the charges redone in the local currency (if that was the choice) and the difference refunded.

RTW1

That's where the scam part of this function really comes in.... there are a lot of cases where you are not given a choice or where the choice is difficult to find.

JEFFJAGUAR

To the best of my knowledge what will happen after the card is swiped is the terminal will ask the clerk if the customer in this case wishes to pay in JPY and lists the amount. The clerk is then given two buttom to press (yes customer accepts no customer declines). It doesn't automatically default to dcc.....it is the clerk who presses one button or the other to complete the transaction. Now many merchants tell their clerks not to ask; to simply press the button accepts and in 99% of the cases, the customers either don't notice they have been ripped off or actually think the merchant is performing a service for them.

I ran into this situation a year and a half ago in Dublin. Only in retrospect did I realize what happened. I was in a Burger King in Dublin . The cashier swiped my card and a slip came out immediately. She didn't glance at it. I am sure this slip indcated the USD amount. Instead she completed the transaction. I noted it was a dcc slip and immediately told her I didn't give permission to convert the currency and that she should void it and re-do it properly in euro. She looked at me (I think she was Roumainian or something a common problem I have both in the UK and Ireland) and the manager, also not somebody completely conversant in English, came by and said that in Ireland the visa regulations don't apply regarding customer choice. I followed my usual procedure. I crossed out the USD amount, circled the euro amount and wrote choice not offered and initialed. She asked why I had done that. I said because I intend to have this charged back to you unless you do it properly. After making a face.....she finally consented to void the original transaction and do it properly in euro. The difference on a charge of 7 or 8 euro was about 36 cents US. Of course most people will say what's the big deal. To me, it's the principle of the matter.

DCC is evil and unfortunately it is like a cancer and has been metastasizing through much of the rraveling world. It is something to be aware of and not accept.

In addition, there is a new variation on this scam followed by many hotels, even of supposedly reputable chains such as Marriot. On the check in card, within all the fine print, there is something to the effect that you accept that you will be charged in your currency. On check out, when the receipt comes up with a dcc transaction and you complain, they pull out the check in slip and say you already agreed and it is too late to change it. The same seems to be true with Avis.

Watch out for stuff like this and always read whatever you sign and if you see them trying to pull dcc, cross out the acceptance.

percysmith

A UK building society (Nationwide) has already been warning about this since 2006. Although they assumed ATMs are compliant and would offer customers a choice, it's not too hard to imagine some aggressive banks will ignore the Visa International Operating Regulations and make DCC mandatory at ripoff rates like credit card terminals.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-55.html#813
http://www.nationwide.co.uk/NR/rdonl...lls.pdf#page=8

percysmith

Same as DCC in Harrods. The store clerk is given a selection to choose. Unfortunately in my first purchase the store clerk went off and chose HKD without asking me and couldn't take it back (yes I caused a scene). In subsequent purchases we told the staff we want GBP, in advance, and repeatedly - DCC sucessfully avoided.

In many China/Macau/HK/Taiwan merchants however, there is no such choice:

- St Regis Shenzhen
- A Lorcha Restaurant Macau
- Chiayi Maison De Chine, in House Taipei, W Taipei 2011


And you did not get anyone actually swearing? Maybe in Irelland they still have the concept of customer service, unlike Starbucks in Manhattan.

I also got a similar case in Thailand (La Gritta Restaurant Sukhumvit). Instead of scribbling I want to be charged in THB or circling the THB amount, I asked the slip be voided and I use Amex instead. The waitress threw a face but did reprocess my Visa in THB.

In China, circling the RMB amount (or similar actions such as crossing out the USD amount, adding non-acceptance language) will not help. You have to void it on the spot and pay by alternate means, or take photo of the merchant slip for dispute when you return home:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...onversion.html


We encountered this in Sheraton Futian too

+1 and I don't remember ticking an "accept" box as required by Visa International Operating Regulations http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...n.pdf#page=610 . But we did not take a copy of the check-in form, so it'll be a pain to dispute with our HK bank had we tried (HK banks require you submit everything upfront before they go off and file a dispute with Visa).

We only noticed cos +1 had a card promo that gives her 13X miles but must be charged to the card directly rather than posted from the deposit taken in check-in.

Yep http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/avis/...gebacks-4.html

JEFFJAGUAR

What do you mean it won't help to circle the local currency amount and write local option not offered. The merchant can process the charge anyway he wishes. You dispute the charge with visa (or mc) and they will charge it back through the visa (or mc) network. At least that's what happened the few times I've had to resort to this.

BTW in the case of the Irish charge, my bank simply credited the difference (something like 50 cents US or thereabouts) and did not bother with a chargeback which quite frankly I would have preferred to punish these vermin.

Also I think I read in another thread of your problem (or somebody else's) problem at Harrod's. Any transaction can be voided (what happens if a clerk accidentally enters the wrong amount; I simply don't accept it can't be voided). Either I owuld have walked away and told the clerk I changed my mind about buying it or I would have written on the sales slip local option not offered and circled the amount in local currency.

Maybe it's different in Hong Kong. What I do know is that on the couple of occasions I have had to resort to this, unlike the Burger King episode where they simply credited the difference, my visa bank did charge the charge back to the merchant. I don't see where your bank has any choice in this matter and let Harrod's handle it and deal with it.

percysmith

Yeah I've done it, with A Lorcha. My evidence was ironclad tho, it was a carbon slip with an carbon-imprinted X clearly marked against the MOP option.

I would have tried not to accept that.

BTW Harrods did offer a refund, but only in GBP (we tried it). The DCC markup was locked in as a result. At no point in the Visa International Operating Regulations is a Void option mandatory - it really depends on the POS design and designers can simply decided to not put one in (Harrods, and Apple Store HK also) or lock it with an admin password (St. Regis Shenzhen).

Problem is with the UK slip the DCC option came in the POS, and was not subject to customer choice - cashier choice only. So it'll be an uphill battle proving you did not select DCC (c.f. A Lorcha carbon slip above).

Sometimes we have to take the dispute to the next level (the HK bank regulator HK Monetary Authority). As a govt bureaucracy, you don't want to go there unless your documentation is ironclad.

Strict reading of the VIOR would suggest not being able to tick a choice to opt in DCC on the slip is prima facie non-compliant.
But I'm not sure if the UK regulator (APACS?) will see it that way - their Chip and PIN don't really require a signature all the time, anyway.
Same with Korea, where the cards are still magstripe and sign but the signatures are all electronically recorded (no merchant slip). DCC choice is be made at the terminal.

3galsontour

When I am travelling and offered a choice of local country or amount converted to $US always choose local currency. Now I also know to argue it until that is the outcome. Has anyone had experience as to whether Amex or Visa make this an easier process when there is a dispute?

JEFFJAGUAR

First of all, Amex does not allow the use of dcc.

percysmith

Amex doesn't allow charging in USD outside US in general (unless your goods were also priced in US$ and there was no local currency involved, like Lotte Seoul Duty Free Shopping).

My Visa bank in Hong Kong took me bit more than 2 months to dispute a transaction with the DCC merchant's bank and compel them to withdraw the home currency transaction and charge in local currency. That was when I had an ironclad carbon slip which showed my currency selection very clearly, and my bank was relatively helpful throughout.

travelinfoo

Another thing to look for is on the receipt, somewhere near your signature line but not directly above is the statement: "I have been given a choice of currency and chose to be charged in US$". If you see this but actually want the local currency, DO NOT sign the charge slip! It's done very cleverly. They show the local currency and its US$ "equivalent". I was told that was for info purpose only and not that I was being charged US$. Liars!

I missed the "I have been given. . ." statement on the first receipt and noticed only on review afterwards. The next time it was tried on me, I refused to sign the receipt. They refused to charge in the local currency. They said they could only do it that way because I had a US CC. I crossed out the statement, wrote "no choice offered" in big block letters on it. The clerk got upset but suddenly "remembered" how to do the charge in the local currency.

percysmith

Ha. Where was this? Name and shame the merchant.

"got upset but suddenly "remembered"" - haha sounds like my waitress in La Gritta Bangkok Sukhumvit. She first said no choice but gave up blocking when I insisted I see the card terminal.

JEFFJAGUAR

These are two great lies of the dcc scam.

1. The USD amount is shown only for guidance. (It can be any currency for which the card presented is tied in).

2. We have no control over it; it;s done automatically. (No because of the visa/mc rules, the first thing the terminal asks the clerk is whether the transaction should be conducted in local currency or the currency of the card holder. The clerk has total control over it).

Other lies are

3. It is required by law of this country.

4. It's being done for your advantage to avoid fees of currency conversion (in most cases the fee is a foreign transaction fee and charged anyway).

5. Sorry. Once the transaction is done, it can't be voided.

Any or all of the above. Followed by the biggest lie of all

6. No speak ?English.

As noted, the procedure is

1. Request the transaction be voided and re-done in local currency.

2 If the clerk refuses, ask to see the manager.

3. If you can't get the clerk to bring the manager or the manager repeats any of these lies, circle the amount in local currency and write choice not offered and initial it.

4. When you get home, dispute the charge. Your bank will have no choice but to charge it back to the merchant as the merchant will have to produce the original slip with your statement.

5. Under no circumstances, offer to pay cash. Using your credit card is the proper thing to do anyway.

If people followed these simple rules, this scam can be stopped but I am afraid too many ignorant people allow themselves to be scammed and it is metastasizing throughout the travelling world!

percysmith

I would like to add

With a thermal slip, you should be able to get a printout of the currency selected. If it is not printed (common in China), assume DCC
With carbon slip, can go either way.

For thermal slip, if in doubt, take iPhone photo of slip before handing back to cashier. That way your bank need not perform a signed slip retrieval.