Why is Platinum the "default" card issued in North America ?
Jun 12, 2007, 10:43 pm
#31
Join Date: May 2007
Location: HSV,BNA,AMS,ICN
Programs: KE Morning Calm, FB Gold, Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat, Radisson VIP, Hyatt Disc
Posts: 24
true it's mostly about the marketing, but from what I understand Visa Signature requires household income level of greater than $125,000 and World MasterCard is distributed to top 3% of all MC users. So even if you still get the cards w/o fulfilling the requirements you'd probably still fit within top 5% of CC users. So how much do you think being top 5% of the U.S. would be in the other nations? I mean, if $125,000 annual income belongs to middle-upper class in this nation, in most of the other nations it'd be upper or super-upper class.
Jun 13, 2007, 7:13 pm
#33
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 132
I got 2 platinum cards and 1 gold while in college. no real credit history at that point. I was making 10K a year( or less). if I got it then anyone could. it was never something for me to strive towards. then again, i did lie on my credit card applications. I dont know if that made the difference
Jun 14, 2007, 1:30 pm
#34
Join Date: Mar 2005
Programs: US Silver Preferred
Posts: 133
true it's mostly about the marketing, but from what I understand Visa Signature requires household income level of greater than $125,000 and World MasterCard is distributed to top 3% of all MC users. So even if you still get the cards w/o fulfilling the requirements you'd probably still fit within top 5% of CC users. So how much do you think being top 5% of the U.S. would be in the other nations? I mean, if $125,000 annual income belongs to middle-upper class in this nation, in most of the other nations it'd be upper or super-upper class.
Jun 14, 2007, 2:11 pm
#35
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,195
Heck, I'm not even pushing a third of $125,000 per year and I've obtained the Alaska Airlines Visa Signature, the United Airlines Visa Signature (Platinum Class) and the Citi/AAdvantage World Mastercard (Platinum level). That's with less than four years of credit history and not even working full-time year-round (college, you know). I've had the AS and UA cards for probably four years now--I got them with six months of a credit history.
Elite qualifications? Nah, they just want your money...
Elite qualifications? Nah, they just want your money...
Jun 14, 2007, 4:56 pm
#36
Join Date: May 2007
Location: HSV,BNA,AMS,ICN
Programs: KE Morning Calm, FB Gold, Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat, Radisson VIP, Hyatt Disc
Posts: 24
those I've said were from the financial news articles and they are supposedly the basic requirements, but as always requirements can be waived in a way or another, apparently.
so if I speculate on the possible exceptions..
1. have excellent credit score(720+, 5+ trade credit lines)
2. have a master's degree (maybe even a bachelor's)
3. you are yet under 25 and your family income was counted all together with your parents' income(from my memory somewhere, I could be wrong)
any of them seems to fit?
anyways, VS and WMC don't seem so exclusive now as their competition seems to have become fierce. but those cards still give the best benefits from all the CC's out there. I just got the Saks WEMC(btw Sotheby WEMC is coming out, invite only) just for the concierge service and PP stardard membership, and there's no annual fee.
so if I speculate on the possible exceptions..
1. have excellent credit score(720+, 5+ trade credit lines)
2. have a master's degree (maybe even a bachelor's)
3. you are yet under 25 and your family income was counted all together with your parents' income(from my memory somewhere, I could be wrong)
any of them seems to fit?
anyways, VS and WMC don't seem so exclusive now as their competition seems to have become fierce. but those cards still give the best benefits from all the CC's out there. I just got the Saks WEMC(btw Sotheby WEMC is coming out, invite only) just for the concierge service and PP stardard membership, and there's no annual fee.
Jun 14, 2007, 6:09 pm
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco/Tel Aviv/YYZ
Programs: CO 1K-MM
Posts: 10,762
I'm a PhD student, I make a nominal income that is a small fraction of 125k.
I have 4 Visa Signature cards, 2 world mastercards, and a smattering of others.
This "platinum", "gold" business means nothing. In some foreign countries, the difference is actually quite big. Here, ever other card is "platinum". it doesn't mean diddly squat.
I have 4 Visa Signature cards, 2 world mastercards, and a smattering of others.
This "platinum", "gold" business means nothing. In some foreign countries, the difference is actually quite big. Here, ever other card is "platinum". it doesn't mean diddly squat.
Jun 15, 2007, 12:49 am
#38
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Trier,Germany
Programs: LH SEN, BAEC, HH
Posts: 124
Remember how it is in the Olympics? Bronze comes before Silver, which comes before Gold. So basically, someone who has a Bronze Card is scum not worthy of Silver... 
Basically, it's a matter of a sort of "inflation of expectations". There are people nowadays who would take not being offered a Platinum card as a slight. Remember the days when there was no Platinum? When things ended at Gold? Or when there was no Gold at all? It's all been marketing from the beginning.
The reason it hasn't happened outside the US is that 1. there is less credit card usage in other countries and 2. companies in other countries tend to be more protective of their premium product.
With regard to 1.: I know a number of people in Switzerland and Germany who don't have any credit card and just use Maestro debit cards or cash instead. When you have not even sewn up the market with your regular credit card, there is no need to keep stealing market share from others by (supposedly) differentiating your product by slapping on the name of a precious metal. I have 5 credit cards - two from Switzerland, three from Germany. They're all basic cards (though three of them are co-branded).
In any case, while it's absolutely correct that Europeans also have and covet status symbols, they're usually more subtle. Bling won't get you much other than disgust in Continental Europe. And the same goes for a credit card that screams "Oooh, look at me, I want you to think I'm important!" The best you can hope for is to be regarded as a self-important w@nker, probably less than that. Most people who work with credit cards over here barely even look at them anyway.
With regard to 2.: European companies like to keep their premium product premium. That is why there are no unlimited free upgrades on European airlines, and that is why banks actually require you to reach the (rather high) qualification requirements for their premium products. They realize that when a product is no longer regarded as premium, people are no longer willing to pay a premium for it. That is why the First Class and Business Class cabin on US carriers are full of upgraders - when you think you can get the product for free, why would you pay for it? It's all about revenue protection, and if this means going out with empty seats in F and flying everyone in the cabin they paid for, so be it. If it means giving everyone a basic Visa unless they're willing to pay a higher annual fee for the Gold, then so be it. (BTW, yes, most credit cards in Continental Europe, even the basic ones, still come with an annual fee. I bet US card issuers would love to still be able to charge people for using their card!)
There are some companies who are starting to buck the trend, but they're not well-regarded. One example is http://www.gebuhrenfrei.com/ (German only, sorry), but somehow I fail to see the cachet of a card which screams "GOLD!" but still carries the word Gebührenfrei meaning "free of fees".
Basically, it's a matter of a sort of "inflation of expectations". There are people nowadays who would take not being offered a Platinum card as a slight. Remember the days when there was no Platinum? When things ended at Gold? Or when there was no Gold at all? It's all been marketing from the beginning.
The reason it hasn't happened outside the US is that 1. there is less credit card usage in other countries and 2. companies in other countries tend to be more protective of their premium product.
With regard to 1.: I know a number of people in Switzerland and Germany who don't have any credit card and just use Maestro debit cards or cash instead. When you have not even sewn up the market with your regular credit card, there is no need to keep stealing market share from others by (supposedly) differentiating your product by slapping on the name of a precious metal. I have 5 credit cards - two from Switzerland, three from Germany. They're all basic cards (though three of them are co-branded).
In any case, while it's absolutely correct that Europeans also have and covet status symbols, they're usually more subtle. Bling won't get you much other than disgust in Continental Europe. And the same goes for a credit card that screams "Oooh, look at me, I want you to think I'm important!" The best you can hope for is to be regarded as a self-important w@nker, probably less than that. Most people who work with credit cards over here barely even look at them anyway.
With regard to 2.: European companies like to keep their premium product premium. That is why there are no unlimited free upgrades on European airlines, and that is why banks actually require you to reach the (rather high) qualification requirements for their premium products. They realize that when a product is no longer regarded as premium, people are no longer willing to pay a premium for it. That is why the First Class and Business Class cabin on US carriers are full of upgraders - when you think you can get the product for free, why would you pay for it? It's all about revenue protection, and if this means going out with empty seats in F and flying everyone in the cabin they paid for, so be it. If it means giving everyone a basic Visa unless they're willing to pay a higher annual fee for the Gold, then so be it. (BTW, yes, most credit cards in Continental Europe, even the basic ones, still come with an annual fee. I bet US card issuers would love to still be able to charge people for using their card!)
There are some companies who are starting to buck the trend, but they're not well-regarded. One example is http://www.gebuhrenfrei.com/ (German only, sorry), but somehow I fail to see the cachet of a card which screams "GOLD!" but still carries the word Gebührenfrei meaning "free of fees".
Well said...^^
Jun 15, 2007, 5:04 am
#39
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 254
MC/Visa regulate the minimum credit lines for the cards. A few years ago Gold was $5,000, Platinum was $10,000. Then Gold dropped to $100 and Platinum to $5,000. There was one exception, and it was Citibank. Once upon a time Citibank was allowed to offer Platinum level MasterCard cards with a lower credit limit guideline, I believe it was $1000 while other financial issuers still had the $5k min. So they had an advantage here.
Citibank was able to offer college students and lower credit worthy individuals something other lenders could not, a "coveted" Platinum card. Platinum is associated with prestige, it makes people feel special that they have been awarded a Platinum card. So the marketing tool is to bind loyalty, and make people feel valued with a Platinum level product. They had great growth among a key consumer segment, and therefore MC and Visa began to lower the thresholds until about 2005 when the Platinum min dropped to $50. Not all Platinums are equal. Some have more competitive offers and better benefits. However the problem remained in that everyone had Platinum, and the high value $50k limit Platinum card segment wanted to be differentiated from the $200 limit Platinum college cardholder.
Visa and MC knew they had to do something for affluent cardmembers, and others with prime credit. In the meantime some banks created their own elite cards to placate existing cardmembers (MBNA launched Quantum MasterCard as an example). Visa/MC would later introduce Visa Signature and World MasterCard product levels for the affluent and credit worthy segments, so banks finally had a new card product for their wealthier or more prime target group. Initially the min credit lines were $10,000 for each but now stand at $5k. The next super-elite levels are Visa Infinite and World Elite MasterCard - issued by very few lenders currently. I don't know the World Elite min, but Infinite is $25,000.
And finally, about the Citibank Gold and Platinum level World MasterCard cards, they are both equally World and the only difference are the benefits. Gold has annual caps, lower fee and the Platinum has no caps and more benefits.
Citibank was able to offer college students and lower credit worthy individuals something other lenders could not, a "coveted" Platinum card. Platinum is associated with prestige, it makes people feel special that they have been awarded a Platinum card. So the marketing tool is to bind loyalty, and make people feel valued with a Platinum level product. They had great growth among a key consumer segment, and therefore MC and Visa began to lower the thresholds until about 2005 when the Platinum min dropped to $50. Not all Platinums are equal. Some have more competitive offers and better benefits. However the problem remained in that everyone had Platinum, and the high value $50k limit Platinum card segment wanted to be differentiated from the $200 limit Platinum college cardholder.
Visa and MC knew they had to do something for affluent cardmembers, and others with prime credit. In the meantime some banks created their own elite cards to placate existing cardmembers (MBNA launched Quantum MasterCard as an example). Visa/MC would later introduce Visa Signature and World MasterCard product levels for the affluent and credit worthy segments, so banks finally had a new card product for their wealthier or more prime target group. Initially the min credit lines were $10,000 for each but now stand at $5k. The next super-elite levels are Visa Infinite and World Elite MasterCard - issued by very few lenders currently. I don't know the World Elite min, but Infinite is $25,000.
And finally, about the Citibank Gold and Platinum level World MasterCard cards, they are both equally World and the only difference are the benefits. Gold has annual caps, lower fee and the Platinum has no caps and more benefits.
Last edited by MaisonUnitas; Jun 15, 2007 at 5:34 am
Jun 15, 2007, 9:54 am
#40
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,679
I don't think Visa Infinite is offered by any US banks. Signature is still pretty new. Although Infinite seems to be a much closer match to Amex Plat. Too bad.
As far as lines of credit, I would suspect that most Signature cards are at least 10K, if not 20-25K. Most of the sig programs out there seem to be various affinity programs with annual fees that wouldn't make sense unless you had the credit line to really charge a lot. An international business trip could rack up well over 5K just in hotel and airfare. A low limit card wouldn't make any sense.
As far as lines of credit, I would suspect that most Signature cards are at least 10K, if not 20-25K. Most of the sig programs out there seem to be various affinity programs with annual fees that wouldn't make sense unless you had the credit line to really charge a lot. An international business trip could rack up well over 5K just in hotel and airfare. A low limit card wouldn't make any sense.
Jun 15, 2007, 1:18 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 254
I don't think Visa Infinite is offered by any US banks. Signature is still pretty new. Although Infinite seems to be a much closer match to Amex Plat. Too bad.
As far as lines of credit, I would suspect that most Signature cards are at least 10K, if not 20-25K. Most of the sig programs out there seem to be various affinity programs with annual fees that wouldn't make sense unless you had the credit line to really charge a lot. An international business trip could rack up well over 5K just in hotel and airfare. A low limit card wouldn't make any sense.
As far as lines of credit, I would suspect that most Signature cards are at least 10K, if not 20-25K. Most of the sig programs out there seem to be various affinity programs with annual fees that wouldn't make sense unless you had the credit line to really charge a lot. An international business trip could rack up well over 5K just in hotel and airfare. A low limit card wouldn't make any sense.
I agree a $5k would be too low, but the point is that even Signature isn't a super elite card product because the min credit line needed is so low. What makes a card special is that the criterion to acquire it remain high, as with Centurion. If anyone who was willing to pay the annual fee could obtain it, there would be more cards out there and thus dilute the value of the product. I know $2500 may seem high but surely some out there would just want the card for the perceived elite status or maybe just the benefits. And with no pre-set spending limit, even with a $5k, you could still exceed the limit with Signature/World cards.
Jun 15, 2007, 4:24 pm
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,195
Both of my Signature (AA/UA) cards have limits of more than $10,000. My Citi/AA Platinum World Mastercard has a $6,000 limit.
When I initially got the AS Classic card about three and a half years ago, I got a limit of $6,000. It wasn't until my limit was raised to $11,000 that I was offered the Platinum card. (When the Signature card came out, it was an optional upgrade/crossgrade, as the annual fee was the same and all I had to do was go to a special website and request it.)
Visa Signature and MC World both tout their No Preset Spending Limit in a similar vein to AmEx's charge cards: transactions (that would exceed your credit limit, anyway) are approved based on a formula involving your previous spending and payment patterns: that is, you can never tell. I've never tested the NPSL limit on my Visa Signatures more than a few dollars here and there, but I did hit $8,000 once on my World Mastercard and was declined for even a small burger and fries transaction after that.
I thought BofA was offering (or going to be offering) the Visa Infinite for their high-roller Private Bank customers (it was rumored to be a black card reminiscent of the AmEx Centurion black card). But that was just a rumor. Perhaps Merrill Lynch was the only one to do it.
Signature annual fees aren't that bad: BofA/AS's is $75, the same as their Platinum product. I was going to say that Chase/UA's was $85, but they change their card lineup so often that I can't keep track of it or remember what it was. It looks like it's now $60 per year. (I've splurged for the Visa Signature Platinum Class, which is a Chase label much like Citi's Gold and Platinum-level AA World Mastercards are both Citi labels, not MC labels, because I fell victim to the marketing scheme and can't pass up the double miles on food, groceries, gas, etc.).
I handle hundreds of credit cards each week at my job, and I can vouch that the Signature and World lines, while not bountiful, are certainly not rare. If I were to throw a dart at the wall, I'd probably say that around 15-20% of customers have these cards, which is actually surprisingly lower than I thought (I just thought about it now), considering that United's lineup is exclusively now Signature and most other airline cards are heavily biased toward the Signature/World labels.
When I initially got the AS Classic card about three and a half years ago, I got a limit of $6,000. It wasn't until my limit was raised to $11,000 that I was offered the Platinum card. (When the Signature card came out, it was an optional upgrade/crossgrade, as the annual fee was the same and all I had to do was go to a special website and request it.)
Visa Signature and MC World both tout their No Preset Spending Limit in a similar vein to AmEx's charge cards: transactions (that would exceed your credit limit, anyway) are approved based on a formula involving your previous spending and payment patterns: that is, you can never tell. I've never tested the NPSL limit on my Visa Signatures more than a few dollars here and there, but I did hit $8,000 once on my World Mastercard and was declined for even a small burger and fries transaction after that.
I thought BofA was offering (or going to be offering) the Visa Infinite for their high-roller Private Bank customers (it was rumored to be a black card reminiscent of the AmEx Centurion black card). But that was just a rumor. Perhaps Merrill Lynch was the only one to do it.
Signature annual fees aren't that bad: BofA/AS's is $75, the same as their Platinum product. I was going to say that Chase/UA's was $85, but they change their card lineup so often that I can't keep track of it or remember what it was. It looks like it's now $60 per year. (I've splurged for the Visa Signature Platinum Class, which is a Chase label much like Citi's Gold and Platinum-level AA World Mastercards are both Citi labels, not MC labels, because I fell victim to the marketing scheme and can't pass up the double miles on food, groceries, gas, etc.).
I handle hundreds of credit cards each week at my job, and I can vouch that the Signature and World lines, while not bountiful, are certainly not rare. If I were to throw a dart at the wall, I'd probably say that around 15-20% of customers have these cards, which is actually surprisingly lower than I thought (I just thought about it now), considering that United's lineup is exclusively now Signature and most other airline cards are heavily biased toward the Signature/World labels.
Jun 15, 2007, 5:26 pm
#44
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 254
Both of my Signature (AA/UA) cards have limits of more than $10,000. My Citi/AA Platinum World Mastercard has a $6,000 limit.
When I initially got the AS Classic card about three and a half years ago, I got a limit of $6,000. It wasn't until my limit was raised to $11,000 that I was offered the Platinum card. (When the Signature card came out, it was an optional upgrade/crossgrade, as the annual fee was the same and all I had to do was go to a special website and request it.)
Visa Signature and MC World both tout their No Preset Spending Limit in a similar vein to AmEx's charge cards: transactions (that would exceed your credit limit, anyway) are approved based on a formula involving your previous spending and payment patterns: that is, you can never tell. I've never tested the NPSL limit on my Visa Signatures more than a few dollars here and there, but I did hit $8,000 once on my World Mastercard and was declined for even a small burger and fries transaction after that.
I thought BofA was offering (or going to be offering) the Visa Infinite for their high-roller Private Bank customers (it was rumored to be a black card reminiscent of the AmEx Centurion black card). But that was just a rumor. Perhaps Merrill Lynch was the only one to do it.
Signature annual fees aren't that bad: BofA/AS's is $75, the same as their Platinum product. I was going to say that Chase/UA's was $85, but they change their card lineup so often that I can't keep track of it or remember what it was. It looks like it's now $60 per year. (I've splurged for the Visa Signature Platinum Class, which is a Chase label much like Citi's Gold and Platinum-level AA World Mastercards are both Citi labels, not MC labels, because I fell victim to the marketing scheme and can't pass up the double miles on food, groceries, gas, etc.).
I handle hundreds of credit cards each week at my job, and I can vouch that the Signature and World lines, while not bountiful, are certainly not rare. If I were to throw a dart at the wall, I'd probably say that around 15-20% of customers have these cards, which is actually surprisingly lower than I thought (I just thought about it now), considering that United's lineup is exclusively now Signature and most other airline cards are heavily biased toward the Signature/World labels.
When I initially got the AS Classic card about three and a half years ago, I got a limit of $6,000. It wasn't until my limit was raised to $11,000 that I was offered the Platinum card. (When the Signature card came out, it was an optional upgrade/crossgrade, as the annual fee was the same and all I had to do was go to a special website and request it.)
Visa Signature and MC World both tout their No Preset Spending Limit in a similar vein to AmEx's charge cards: transactions (that would exceed your credit limit, anyway) are approved based on a formula involving your previous spending and payment patterns: that is, you can never tell. I've never tested the NPSL limit on my Visa Signatures more than a few dollars here and there, but I did hit $8,000 once on my World Mastercard and was declined for even a small burger and fries transaction after that.
I thought BofA was offering (or going to be offering) the Visa Infinite for their high-roller Private Bank customers (it was rumored to be a black card reminiscent of the AmEx Centurion black card). But that was just a rumor. Perhaps Merrill Lynch was the only one to do it.
Signature annual fees aren't that bad: BofA/AS's is $75, the same as their Platinum product. I was going to say that Chase/UA's was $85, but they change their card lineup so often that I can't keep track of it or remember what it was. It looks like it's now $60 per year. (I've splurged for the Visa Signature Platinum Class, which is a Chase label much like Citi's Gold and Platinum-level AA World Mastercards are both Citi labels, not MC labels, because I fell victim to the marketing scheme and can't pass up the double miles on food, groceries, gas, etc.).
I handle hundreds of credit cards each week at my job, and I can vouch that the Signature and World lines, while not bountiful, are certainly not rare. If I were to throw a dart at the wall, I'd probably say that around 15-20% of customers have these cards, which is actually surprisingly lower than I thought (I just thought about it now), considering that United's lineup is exclusively now Signature and most other airline cards are heavily biased toward the Signature/World labels.