tmiw

Barber shops too, and quite possibly a significant number of tradespeople as well (e.g. plumbers, handymen, etc.)

Also, NYC in general (as well as SF) have a reputation of being card unfriendly compared to the rest of the country. I'm not sure that's all that true anymore, though.

Barciur

This was true in Poland until the interchange fees got capped to 0.3% where they are now... now everybody accepts cards. But here in PA I see more and more places put in credit card surchages - I yesterday upon visiting a local pizza place, I noticed they have a sign saying "as of 6/1/19 there will be a 4% surcharge on all debit and credit card transactions." But along that came a new terminal with NFC acceptance.

beachmouse

We got a lawn service for the first time this year and we have to actually mail them a check every month. It just seems so primitive. Even our cat sitter lets you pay with Venmo and such.

tmiw

My guess is that they were never all that pleased about accepting cards and were only convinced to upgrade their stuff due to a combination of a particularly large chargeback and their payment processor telling them that they're allowed to surcharge to help pay for the hardware.

Anyway, I'm not sure how well that'll work out for them in the short/medium term, but I do kinda wonder what would happen if a major retailer started surcharging. Say, Walmart or Kroger. Would a bunch of other stores follow suit in short order, or would those major retailers get enough backlash that they'd have to stop? Even if they followed the exact letter of the law/card network rules on that issue (e.g. only apply them for credit cards, sufficient notice for customers, etc.)?

RedSun

IMO, the virtual wallets are still not accepted by the Americans. There is just no need for them right now. I have both Apply wallet and Samsung Pay. But I only use them if I can get any additional benefits or promotions for using them. If I do not bring my physical cards, I'm afraid some merchants would ask me for the physical cards to verify due to fraud concerns.

To me, no need. I trust my real wallet much more than the fancy virtual wallet. US is not China.

tmiw

I'm not denying that this happens, but I've never had that happen for me for any normal (e.g. non-MS) purchases. And if it ever does, that place doesn't deserve my business, nor should it get anyone else's.

That's not to say that there aren't reasons to have at least one or two physical cards on you, though. For one thing, it's still somewhat accepted/expected for employees to run cards for customers in certain industries/contexts, so there's no guarantee that there's a NFC enabled terminal that's easily accessible for customers. Not to mention that from experience, MST isn't 100% reliable either--at least when used from a watch.

Of course not. Otherwise we'd all be using QR codes to pay for stuff.

Anyway, one of the positive things Apple did by releasing Apple Pay here first is make it a lot harder for merchants to justify going with hardware that can't do NFC, significantly reducing the "lack of infrastructure" justification for QR. Of course, that likely meant that AP for in-person transactions would be seen as a market failure, much like contactless cards were the first time around. Time will tell if people eventually adopt mobile wallets after getting a taste of the experience by tapping physical cards.

On that note, Venmo is probably the only one with the consumer reach to enable widespread QR code payment acceptance. PayPal seems content with keeping it P2P only and leaving the main PayPal service for B2C transactions, though (which for many can cost as much if not more than just accepting cards directly). I could see a fair number of businesses adopting Venmo quickly if it a) costed less than 1% or so to run such transactions and b) made POS integration easy for merchants.

RedSun

You know what is the % of merchants who are ready for all virtual wallets? Also the % of people who regularly use virtual wallets? I guess no more of 5% transactions are done via virtual wallets at POS.

I know you love Apple. But even the new Apple CC won't change much.

Barciur

By that same token it is not rest of the western world - Canada, Australia, most of Europe, where contactless is king and people can simply skip having the wallet altogether. So while we're not the rest of the world, I hope we join it.

RedSun

Very sad data point from research. Apple is even behind Walmart Pay.


https://www.pymnts.com/mobile-wallet...on-statistics/

RedSun

Nope, American people do not change. We still use inches and pounds.

RedSun

The last time we were in Canada. After dinner at a restaurant, the waiter brought a mobile payment terminal. I did not like that thing. It is a machine, not a human. We wanted human service, not a black plastic and metal machine to our dinner table.

lsquare

I think Walmart was in the news recently for its dispute with Visa over fees. Ultimately both sides have something to gain from reaching some sort of agreement.

lsquare

In Canada, you're going to see some small retailers putting a label on their machines that states no tapping is allowed. That's because they're afraid of potential fraud so they'll insist that you insert the card.

tmiw

Mobile Contactless Payments Will Account for Less Than 2% of US Retail Sales This Year. Note that the same article also mentions various reasons for "optimism" for its future prospects in the US, the biggest being the card transaction volume currently flowing through contactless-enabled terminals.

Why not? There are a lot of people out there who don't care that much about maximizing rewards and just want to use one card for everything. "2% cash back if you tap your phone" is simple enough to understand over trying to figure out if a restaurant actually codes as one with the CSR (for example).

IMO, contactless is the networks' second chance at fixing the various compatibility/convenience issues that have arisen between US and foreign cards. EMV was supposed to have done so, but considering that there are still articles like this being published (plus the multiple thousands of comments in the EMV threads on FT alone), that obviously hasn't happened. At least contactless seems to be getting taken more seriously this time, as evidenced by the various card network mandates requiring that it be enabled on non-US terminals.

Anyway, even if Apple Pay and the other mobile wallets do end up being a deemed market failure here, they've ensured that merchant acceptance of contactless cards is remotely close to what it is elsewhere. Otherwise, Chase and other issuers definitely wouldn't have bothered trying to issue them again, ensuring we'd likely still be about a decade or so behind (at best) and facing a possible future where non-US issuers issue physical cards only for expected US travel (due to the lack of contactless here).

Apples and oranges comparison (pun unintended). One of those can only be used at one chain (which can easily ensure that it's supported at all locations and provide specific incentives for its use), while the other is usable everywhere that has NFC enabled on their terminals/PIN pads and relies on retailers and card issuers to provide the value add.

Plus, I'm pretty sure PYMNTS has been claiming that Apple Pay is/will be a failure since almost the beginning. Why, I'm not sure.

The fact that most places use the chip now (without there having to be government/card network mandates) disproves this. Granted, it likely would have happened faster and more extensively were it mandated, as I'm not sure the liability shift was sufficient motivation for many.

My last pay at the table experience in the US involved the server inserting my card for me and leaving the Clover device for me to choose the tip and sign while he went to check on other customers. What additional service is given when the card's taken away to be run at some central location, especially when I'm going to have to write down the tip and sign anyway? If there's any awkwardness being caused by the pay at the table experience, it's the restaurant doing it wrong.

Also, if they otherwise provided good service, I'd like them to get all of their deserved tip. Not like the one restaurant I recently went to that fat-fingered on the terminal after I left and ended up giving themselves far less than what I had written down. Never mind having to call/visit the restaurant again (or worse, initiate a chargeback) if the server ends up giving him or herself more.

Sure. However, if it turns out that they won't be able to, say, reject Visa Infinite cards, I could see surcharges for all credit cards becoming way more of a thing (assuming there's no pushback from consumers if a major retailer tries it). They already succeeded at getting interchange capped for debit cards and getting the right to prohibit routing debit card transactions over Visa/MC, so they're likely less bothered by those than in the past.

Are merchants specifically liable for fraudulent contactless transactions in Canada? I thought liability in general only shifted if one didn't have chip readers (assuming that EMV wasn't mandated by law in any particular country).

lsquare

I posted an article in the "New York" forum about NYC restaurants having the right to add surcharges now. I was in NYC last week and I didn't see any restaurants that I frequented adding surcharges. Maybe the ones that have tried felt the pushback from consumers. I don't think it'll be that easy to add a surcharge.

That I don't know. I don't challenge what the merchant wants. If they want the card to be inserted, then I'll insert it. Although they do ask why I have to sign my transaction when I insert my Chase card...