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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36561173)
Yes. Only Visa and Mastercard networks support DCC. Other networks, such as American Express, Discover, JCB, and UnionPay do not.
I usually go to branded bank ATMs. This isn't specific to Italy but rather anywhere. I'd avoid Euronet ATMs that have high fees and always try to DCC. You can see how to opt out of the fees and DCC if you read my post from about a month ago, but it's better to go to a bank's ATM to avoid this entirely.
Originally Posted by TWA884
(Post 36561244)
If you are a Bank of America customer, you will not be assessed ATM access fees at Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, which is owned by BNP Paribas, as all are members of the Global ATM Alliance.
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Originally Posted by abaheti
(Post 36561496)
....I thought I saw that AmEx website says they support DCC
https://www.americanexpress.com/en-u...hen-traveling/ |
Mrs. Majuki made two purchases at a department store in Kaohsiung, one at Muji and one at Uniqlo. I saw that they had two credit card payment terminals, but the cashiers at both stores used the National Credit Card Center ones, which presented a DCC prompt for both transactions (with a tap). At Muji, the cashier verbally proactively offered, "台幣 (táibì)," which we could select as the number 2 option on the screen. Like the purchase more than a month ago, the signature slip appears on the terminal with the total in the selected currency. I suppose in the case of a forced DCC you could refuse to sign at that point, but it hasn't been an issue. Even in cases where the terminals are not customer facing, the cashier has always presented the terminal at retail shops or respected the currency choice at hotels.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8db51ffb20.jpghttps://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...d0d9fff4de.jpg |
Renfe offered DCC. While the offer said that it was 2%, the Visa amount is $153.79. Therefore, the DCC offer is more like 4.99%.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...fe1287114c.jpg |
I stopped in a souvenir shop in Edinburgh today, and there was an Evalon branded sign about paying in your own currency. The credit card terminal was customer facing, and, for the first time for me in the UK, a contactless transaction resulted in a DCC offer. The rate was $18.58 (at a 4% markup) for £13.99. I was able to opt out easily, but I'll have increased vigilance now with contactless transactions in the UK.
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~15% offer at a Euronet ATM in Copenhagen, declined of course
in FRA, bought an S-Bahn ticket through the RMV app, which seemed to only offer Paypal as an option -- there may have been an option to add a card, but this seemed convenient and I was in a hurry, until... https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ca622dc7da.png ... per past experience I tried tapping on "See currency options" to switch it to EUR but it didn't "stick" and stubbornly showed the price in USD. I switched to a different card and was able to get the price to be reflected in EUR before completing the transaction. Although, again in my haste I picked a card that has FTFs :facepalm: oh well 3% is better than the 4-5% that Paypal wanted (and much less than 15% :D) I probably would have been more careful for a larger amount... :o |
Originally Posted by Zorak
(Post 36728824)
~15% offer at a Euronet ATM in Copenhagen, declined of course
in FRA, bought an S-Bahn ticket through the RMV app, which seemed to only offer Paypal as an option -- there may have been an option to add a card, but this seemed convenient and I was in a hurry, until... https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ca622dc7da.png ... per past experience I tried tapping on "See currency options" to switch it to EUR but it didn't "stick" and stubbornly showed the price in USD. I switched to a different card and was able to get the price to be reflected in EUR before completing the transaction. Although, again in my haste I picked a card that has FTFs :facepalm: oh well 3% is better than the 4-5% that Paypal wanted (and much less than 15% :D) I probably would have been more careful for a larger amount... :o - first Ebay tries to offer DCC (I was using HKD card) - then Paypal tries to offer DCC (above) I selected out of both and selected the card I want https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cath...l#post36723192 Due to the transaction being Paypal and for a substantial amount my bank decided to block the transaction in the first instance anyway - in the denial SMS I was sent a further confirmation from bank that DCC has been successfully avoided (below). I found the seller in another platform (Chrono24) at first, but to transact in Chrono24 I was forced into HKD multi-currency conversion with 2.15% markup. Frustration with the inability to change into EUR, and the seller's frustration with Chrono24's higher fees led to mutual agreement to re-list the product in Ebay and transact there: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8f177d684.jpeg As a postscript I'm just back from Hungary and Czechia, and seem to have successfully avoided all DCC on pre-authorised payments (car rental, I think all hotels were booked via OTAs), Visa Apple Pay or cash withdrawals. |
I just completed a brief trip to Madrid. DCC was present at about half of the merchants I visited, and contactless transactions didn't prevent DCC prompts. In all but one case I had direct control over the terminal, and at the one place where I didn't, a restaurant, the waiter proactively said, "You want euros, right?" The EUR / USD prompts were apparent on screen, so an easy opt out was possible in all cases.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36742649)
I just completed a brief trip to Madrid. DCC was present at about half of the merchants I visited, and contactless transactions didn't prevent DCC prompts. In all but one case I had direct control over the terminal, and at the one place where I didn't, a restaurant, the waiter proactively said, "You want euros, right?" The EUR / USD prompts were apparent on screen, so an easy opt out was possible in all cases.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36453124)
I used a Euronet ATM at LIS on Wednesday evening (with the Thursday Visa rates). While I didn't want to give business to Euronet, I wanted to check the new trick they have about Cash & Balance. Honest Guide has a video on this in further detail, and I was able to opt out of the balance inquiry option after having watched this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTGXR03ZN68 The displayed DCC offer was displayed as 13.95% at 0.8004 EUR = 1 USD for $254.78. The pending transaction with my bank is $225.32, which matches Visa's rate for 8/15 and is effectively 13.07%. I saved $29.46 by declining DCC. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...6a030d3960.jpghttps://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...8a68e4a097.jpghttps://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...fd22acf336.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...7beb99ee4e.jpghttps://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...7a301d2d4b.jpghttps://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...89cd7ad8fc.jpg DCC is Visa/MC feature which merchant/ATMs accepting these cards can choose to offer as long as they obtain explicit permission during the transaction which Euronet is doing. Heck, Euronet is even presenting the markup % as well as fx rate which is not required by VISA. I have had ATMs present DCC without showing what the markup and fx rate is; only what the USD amount. Euronet is going above and beyond in disclosures. If one need to blame DCC, there is blame for VISA/MC for offering DCC to begin with. Cash and Balance scam is not even a fee Euronet is charging; it is a fee the card issuer is charging for interacting with a 3rd party ATM. I just Cash and Balance and then cancel a transaction at Euronet recently against my Fidelity card and nothing was charged because my card issuer does not charge such a fee. Finally Euronet charging a fee for ATM withdrawals is not really different than a US-bank operated ATM charging a fee if you are not taking money out from an account of the same bank. Euronet is providing a convenience similar to a Chase card member taking cash out at a Bank of America ATM. Depending on which country/location you are in, Euronet ATM is indeed offering a service here. Was in Florence recently and bank ATMs were not available outside of branch hours while Euronet ATMs were readily available. So if you needed to get cash on a Sunday evening, Euronet ATM is offering a genuine convenience option being around in numerous locations and being accessible. |
Originally Posted by seawolf
(Post 36761997)
Honest Guide is not really portraying an accurate picture; downright biased. Not sure if they have a personal vendetta against Euronet or just presenting a bias view for YouTube clicks.
Where is the bias and inaccuracy? This is their second video on Euronet ATMs. The first one is If one need to blame DCC, there is blame for VISA/MC for offering DCC to begin with. Cash and Balance scam is not even a fee Euronet is charging; it is a fee the card issuer is charging for interacting with a 3rd party ATM. It is possible that the behavior has changed between the time of the video posting and your recent cancelled transaction. If you had proceeded to withdraw cash after pressing CASH & BALANCE, would you have been charged the balance inquiry fee? We both know the answer. Otherwise, Euronet wouldn't have that be the default option. Finally Euronet charging a fee for ATM withdrawals is not really different than a US-bank operated ATM charging a fee if you are not taking money out from an account of the same bank. Euronet ATM is offering a genuine convenience option being around in numerous locations and being accessible.
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36547437)
A dishonorable mention is something I overheard at breakfast yesterday morning. Someone was sitting at the table next to mine and had just sat down. He had used a Euronet ATM at a shopping mall and asked the others at the table, "There was something about a 13.95% fee? I didn't know what to do or how to avoid it. The receipt shows this fee." I considered mentioning that he likely had just gotten ripped off in multiple ways: cash & balance fee, DCC spread, Euronet's ATM fee, his bank's ATM fee for using another financial institution's ATM, and perhaps a foreign transaction fee. If he had taken out €100, it's possible he could have had up to 25% in fees if all of the above were paid.
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Majuki in my recent trip to Budapest I avoided Euronet like the plague.
Near Rakoczi Ut there weren’t many non-Euronet ATMs to chose from. They all had an operators fee one way or another, but at least didn’t try and force conversion. I think the missus and I settled on OTP bank, and unfortunately we seem to have added to the long line of locals who also seemed to use that ATM and no other. |
Poland is outrageous with DCC markup
Even mcdonalds kiosk had DCC (I don't recall mcdonalds asking for DCC in any other country). 4.75% on train ticket app 6% at train restaurant car 10% at hotel 9.9% at McDonald's A lot of their bank ATMs are operated by Planet cash or Euronet. 0-22PLN fee plus 13-14.95% DCC markup. 14.95% is outrageous (and this one had highest 22PLN fee on top One said zero fee with DCC rate (13% markup). Declined it, then next page asked again which option I want: DCC (13% markup) with 0 fee vs PLN with 0 fee, and said that Planet cash may charge an additional fee for foreign cards but did not mention how much. Is this legal? (Asking DCC twice, and fee may not be entirely disclosed? At least I declined DCC for all of them. Still trying to find a fee free ATM |
Originally Posted by t2323
(Post 36762543)
Is this legal? (Asking DCC twice, and fee may not be entirely disclosed?
Of course, reading this thread and its predecessors will give many examples of DCC that aren't in compliance with the payment network rules. |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36762165)
[...moderator edit...]
Where is the bias and inaccuracy? This is their second video on Euronet ATMs. The first one is here, which focuses primarily on DCC. The more detailed version of the first video also showcases different behavior depending on the type of card used. The narrator inserts a local bankcard, denominated in CZK, and immediately the default amounts for a cash withdrawal are much more reasonable and far less than the €400-800 equivalent in CZK that the machines were offering the narrator's GBP bankcard. Even though the Visa and Mastercard networks support DCC, they do not decide to implement DCC. The ATM operator or acquirer in the case of a credit card terminal do. Furthermore, the DCC markup on Euronet (13.95% in this example) and Travelex (12.49% at LHR a year ago) ATMs make most other DCC markups blush (with the exception of the post from Zorak showing a 15% markup). This is an ATM operator fee, not a card issuer fee. If you take the time to watch the entire video, a Euronet customer service representative confirms this. Why would Euronet change the type of default transaction and include an OTHER option that says CASH (and a separate BALANCE INQUIRY)? I wasn't about to select CASH & BALANCE on the basis of the video. It is possible that the behavior has changed between the time of the video posting and your recent cancelled transaction. If you had proceeded to withdraw cash after pressing CASH & BALANCE, would you have been charged the balance inquiry fee? We both know the answer. Otherwise, Euronet wouldn't have that be the default option. This is the only part of your post that I consider reasonable, and it's why we encourage people to get debit cards that not only don't charge a fee for using non-bank ATMs but also reimburse ATM operator fees. If all Euronet were doing was charging €3 or €5 equivalent for using its ATMs, few would have a problem with it, and certainly one is always welcome to seek out a surcharge-free ATM. This is intentional. These ATMs are almost always in highly trafficked touristy spots and airports, ready to prey on unsuspecting travelers who are unaware of having to navigate the minefield to opt out of avoidable fees. Take this example of overhearing someone after having used a Euronet ATM in Germany: You can claim that it's a matter of caveat emptor, but Euronet and equivalent ATMs take things to another level. Even those unbranded ATMs at an upscale bar or club aren't nearly as bad. The net effect is they are giving the impression people should avoid the Euronet ATM (and unnecessarily go out of the way to find another ATM) when it is entirely possible to get cash out by declining DCC. When declined, the rate will be identical to any other ATM not offering DCC as it VISA/MC will be doing conversion. The withdrawal fee is disclosed as required by VISA/MC. If one has a fee-reimbursed account, then it is essentially avoided. |
Originally Posted by seawolf
(Post 36763006)
[...Moderator edit...]
The net effect is they are giving the impression people should avoid the Euronet ATM (and unnecessarily go out of the way to find another ATM) when it is entirely possible to get cash out by declining DCC. When declined, the rate will be identical to any other ATM not offering DCC as it VISA/MC will be doing conversion. The withdrawal fee is disclosed as required by VISA/MC. If one has a fee-reimbursed account, then it is essentially avoided. |
Moderator edit
Three posts have been edited. Please adhere to Flyertalk's rules including this one:
If you have a difference of opinion with another member, challenge the idea — NOT the person. Getting personal with another member is not allowed. Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming will not be tolerated. FlyerTalk is a diverse, multi-cultural community. Expressions of prejudice or discrimination in any form are not permitted (such as those concerning race, nationality, religious belief, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, etc). If another member gets personal with you, do not retaliate. Retaliation may well subject you to the same discipline. Instead, please use the 'Alert a moderator to this thread' button in the lower-left-hand-corner of each post, send a note explaining your concern to the moderator team, and leave it to them to handle. Please also see |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36762606)
It's similar to the double opt out that one has to do in Portugal sometimes. This would go against the spirit of the DCC rules that state the customer shouldn't be corralled toward a particular decision, which an, "Are you sure? Are you really sure?" implementation seems to do. Furthermore, the rate has to be disclosed to comply with the Visa/MC implementation rules around DCC.
Of course, reading this thread and its predecessors will give many examples of DCC that aren't in compliance with the payment network rules. But 14.95% markup plus fees on a bank ATM? This was inside Santander bank. It seems Santander offloads ATM responsibility to Euronet (and also participates in Euronet, so their own card members won't get fees). Foreign cards get shafted. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ed64f45336.jpg |
Originally Posted by seawolf
(Post 36763006)
The net effect is they are giving the impression people should avoid the Euronet ATM (and unnecessarily go out of the way to find another ATM) when it is entirely possible to get cash out by declining DCC. When declined, the rate will be identical to any other ATM not offering DCC as it VISA/MC will be doing conversion.
The original purpose of DCC was more benign and had much lower markups of around 3% or below. In fact, 15+ years ago as a US cardholder it might have even made sense to accept the DCC offer when most cards had a 3% currency exchange fee. The USD amount that presented incurred no further fees from the issuing bank and earned rewards on the full amount. Banks wouldn't give rewards on the 3% currency exchange fee. Over time, US card issuers switched to foreign transaction fees instead of currency exchange fees. Subsequently, many travel focus cards started to feature 0% FTFs about 15 years ago. At this point, there is never - outside of some esoteric case of an extreme currency fluctuation - any advantage for the customer to accept DCC. The profit sharing between the acquirer and merchant (or ATM operator in this case) creates a perverse incentive to steer the customer into accepting DCC or opting the customer in to DCC.
Originally Posted by dmapr
(Post 36763150)
I would frequently "shop" ATMs... to find a cheaper one. I would go through the motions till I reach the screen where the fee was listed, then cancel — and I wouldn't be charged. In case of a Euronet ATM I would apparently get dinged as soon as I hit the Cash & Balance — not cool.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 36763649)
I would also tend to avoid Euronet or other independent ATMs due to their setup.
All these were actual ATMs inside bank - all operated by euronet and have fees There were plenty of other "independent" ATM kiosk that were advertised as Euronet or Planet Cash, did not try any of them EDIT, looks like BNP Paribas ATM is operated by Planet cash (this was on side of BNP Paribas bank but with BNP logo plus Planet cash logo) - no luck |
Originally Posted by t2323
(Post 36763681)
What other option is there in Poland?
In other countries, there have been bank operated ATMs that are accessible. |
Originally Posted by t2323
(Post 36763681)
What other option is there in Poland?
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Avoiding a balance inquiry fee.
Originally Posted by Majuki (Post # 1259)
(Post 36763649)
. . . an underhanded technique to get those not in the know. . . .
With Euronet ATMs specifically, the danger is getting charged a balance inquiry fee for selecting CASH & BALANCE, the default option, instead of OTHER and then CASH. [Emphasis added.] Selecting "Other", followed by "Cash", is a great workaround. :cool: :tu: |
A week into a stay in India, having used US cards at hotels, restaurants and supermarkets, we've not yet encountered a single attempt to charge anything other than INR. :tu:
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Originally Posted by KvR
(Post 36766911)
Give it a try at an ATM of Bank Pekao.
Various Google maps review show that other people got no fee too Bank Polski did not partner with planet cash/Euronet, but they still charged 19.9PLN + 12.13% dcc Velo bank (planet cash 20PLn fee or 0+ 13.9% DCC). |
Originally Posted by t2323
(Post 36768704)
Thanks, Pekao bank worked. But the atm maxed out at 200 PLN
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Originally Posted by TWA884
(Post 36769518)
Under $50? Is that per day or transaction?
I went to another Pekao bank ATM, that one allowed me 500 PLN max per transaction. |
Is there a Wiki or thread listing banks by country for ATMs that either don't charge crazy fees and/or allow you to avoid DCC in a reasonable manner? I'd love to have a cheat sheet before I leave for a country letting me know which banks or brands of ATM I should look for.
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Originally Posted by abaheti
(Post 36769829)
Is there a Wiki or thread listing banks by country for ATMs that either don't charge crazy fees and/or allow you to avoid DCC in a reasonable manner? I'd love to have a cheat sheet before I leave for a country letting me know which banks or brands of ATM I should look for.
I don't worry too much about DCC at ATMs since, aside from one instance from klashn in Mexico, it's been possible to opt out. |
Originally Posted by abaheti
(Post 36769829)
Is there a Wiki or thread listing banks by country for ATMs that either don't charge crazy fees and/or allow you to avoid DCC in a reasonable manner? I'd love to have a cheat sheet before I leave for a country letting me know which banks or brands of ATM I should look for.
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Originally Posted by TWA884
(Post 36769879)
I don't know if there is a thread or a wiki, but if you have a Schwab debit card, any fees will be refunded to you by Schwab. If you bank with a member of the Global ATM Alliance - Bank of America, Barclays, BNP Paribas, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, China Construction Bank, Deutsche Bank (except for Spain), Scotiabank, TEB, UkrSibbank and Westpac - usage and access fees for using ATMs belonging to other alliance member banks will be waived. You still have to watch out for DCC offers, though.
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Originally Posted by abaheti
(Post 36769829)
Is there a Wiki or thread listing banks by country for ATMs that either don't charge crazy fees and/or allow you to avoid DCC in a reasonable manner? I'd love to have a cheat sheet before I leave for a country letting me know which banks or brands of ATM I should look for.
when I search for Poland no fee ATM, a lot of posts say bank ATMs have no fee. But that's not what I encountered. One good thing: majority (but not all) of the poland ATMs I've used accept contactless from physical card, less risky getting skimmed |
Good points, thanks. Maybe just time for me to open a new account for ATM -- I'm probably too conservative about opening accounts.
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Originally Posted by TWA884
(Post 36769879)
I don't know if there is a thread or a wiki, but if you have a Schwab debit card, any fees will be refunded to you by Schwab. If you bank with a member of the Global ATM Alliance - Bank of America, Barclays, BNP Paribas, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, China Construction Bank, Deutsche Bank (except for Spain), Scotiabank, TEB, UkrSibbank and Westpac - usage and access fees for using ATMs belonging to other alliance member banks will be waived. You still have to watch out for DCC offers, though.
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The UK ETA app has no way to opt out of MCC. The £10 fee came across at $13.07 since I indicated I was applying from the United States. Based on the exchange rate, it looks like it's a 4.25% conversion fee. I don't know how to dodge this fee unless you're applying from another place that uses the pound (or perhaps applying for renewals from within the UK, if possible).
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What if you indicate you’re applying from the UK even though you’re not? I had to do that for my UK card to be run in GBP.
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Originally Posted by greglvnv
(Post 36779761)
What if you indicate you’re applying from the UK even though you’re not? I had to do that for my UK card to be run in GBP.
But it seems Home Office has abused Majuki ’s honesty. As a side note, my attempts to circumvent Chrono24.com’s attempts to force MCC wasn’t successful https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cred...l#post36728923 . That’s why I was grateful the seller offered to relist the item I wanted on eBay, said it works better for him too: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...5dba76851.jpeg |
Originally Posted by t2323
(Post 36768704)
Thanks, Pekao bank worked. But the atm maxed out at 200 PLN
Various Google maps review show that other people got no fee too Bank Polski did not partner with planet cash/Euronet, but they still charged 19.9PLN + 12.13% dcc Velo bank (planet cash 20PLn fee or 0+ 13.9% DCC). |
Originally Posted by Barciur
(Post 36792426)
Can you confirm that Bank Pekao ATMs in Poland did not charge any fees, or am I misunderstanding?
The transactions posted on my bank account . Preauth and transaction data matches the visa.com rate with 0% bank fee. |
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