Beginning of the End for the Miles Game?
#19


Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon, USA
Programs: Hilton Honors
Posts: 170
The only surprise in all this is how long banks let this all go on nearly unabated for so long. I think the growing number of miles/points bloggers looking for commissions is what ultimately turned this narrow niche of miles-collecting hobbiests into the mainstream, nearly common knowledge game it is today and that's forcing banks to start shutting down the wide open loopholes that so many more have now been taking advantage of. The 2-edged sword that bloggers bring to the game is what has and what will ultimately slow miles-collecting to an excruciatingly slow crawl: they have so efficiently and relentlessly enlightened travel-lovers out there to the joys of (formerly) easy credit card bonuses that the sleeping giants (banks) have finally been forced to deal with it. (Fortunately at a relatively slow pace.) I'm sure they've always been aware of the relatively few miles/credit card geeks taking advantage, but now everyone and their dog (literally, if you know what I mean) is on this now obnoxiously covered hobby of a bandwagon.
Just wondering how/why there are still as many opportunities out there for churners as there are. But not to worry. Nothing that several dozen new credit card bloggers can't fix for us...
Just wondering how/why there are still as many opportunities out there for churners as there are. But not to worry. Nothing that several dozen new credit card bloggers can't fix for us...
#20




Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP , Delta Gold Medallion, "Credit Card" status for various hotels
Posts: 676
I think the banks want new churners, they just don't want the experienced ones.
A newbie gets enticed into the hobby by the bloggers. At first, the credit card world is his oyster. He can apply for multiple cards in the first few years, and receive all sorts of wonderful bonuses....
but then one of two things happen:
1) He gets over his head. Debt starts piling, he doesn't pay off his balances each month. The ridiculously high APRs of these rewards cards hit, and the banks have a profitable customer.
2) He is successful at churning. He is not a profitable customer, and banks are less interested in having him as a customer. He begins to have a harder time acquiring cards and bonuses because of tougher rules from the banks. Eventually, he has to slow down the churn. As an unprofitable customer, it gets harder and harder to continue.
The bloggers do just fine under this scenario and serve a valuable purpose for the banks.
I do think churning will continue to be doable, just at a slower pace and with some creativity.
A newbie gets enticed into the hobby by the bloggers. At first, the credit card world is his oyster. He can apply for multiple cards in the first few years, and receive all sorts of wonderful bonuses....
but then one of two things happen:
1) He gets over his head. Debt starts piling, he doesn't pay off his balances each month. The ridiculously high APRs of these rewards cards hit, and the banks have a profitable customer.
2) He is successful at churning. He is not a profitable customer, and banks are less interested in having him as a customer. He begins to have a harder time acquiring cards and bonuses because of tougher rules from the banks. Eventually, he has to slow down the churn. As an unprofitable customer, it gets harder and harder to continue.
The bloggers do just fine under this scenario and serve a valuable purpose for the banks.
I do think churning will continue to be doable, just at a slower pace and with some creativity.
#21


Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: YWG
Programs: Aeroplan, MileagePlus, Marriott Rewards
Posts: 2,208
I think the banks want new churners, they just don't want the experienced ones.
A newbie gets enticed into the hobby by the bloggers. At first, the credit card world is his oyster. He can apply for multiple cards in the first few years, and receive all sorts of wonderful bonuses....
but then one of two things happen:
1) He gets over his head. Debt starts piling, he doesn't pay off his balances each month. The ridiculously high APRs of these rewards cards hit, and the banks have a profitable customer.
2) He is successful at churning. He is not a profitable customer, and banks are less interested in having him as a customer. He begins to have a harder time acquiring cards and bonuses because of tougher rules from the banks. Eventually, he has to slow down the churn. As an unprofitable customer, it gets harder and harder to continue.
The bloggers do just fine under this scenario and serve a valuable purpose for the banks.
I do think churning will continue to be doable, just at a slower pace and with some creativity.
A newbie gets enticed into the hobby by the bloggers. At first, the credit card world is his oyster. He can apply for multiple cards in the first few years, and receive all sorts of wonderful bonuses....
but then one of two things happen:
1) He gets over his head. Debt starts piling, he doesn't pay off his balances each month. The ridiculously high APRs of these rewards cards hit, and the banks have a profitable customer.
2) He is successful at churning. He is not a profitable customer, and banks are less interested in having him as a customer. He begins to have a harder time acquiring cards and bonuses because of tougher rules from the banks. Eventually, he has to slow down the churn. As an unprofitable customer, it gets harder and harder to continue.
The bloggers do just fine under this scenario and serve a valuable purpose for the banks.
I do think churning will continue to be doable, just at a slower pace and with some creativity.

If you are a successful business owner who puts through $100K a month and never misses a payment, well, there's no interest being paid but assuming that the issuer gets a 2% cut (or whatever) of that amount, then that's a great haul.
And even for a regular salary-earning consumer, if you're a loyal user of one particular card and you put through $25K a year on a card where you basically pay for the overhead and then some through the annual fee which is normal behaviour outside of FT-world, it's hard to see how that isn't profitable for the issuer.
#22




Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVP , Delta Gold Medallion, "Credit Card" status for various hotels
Posts: 676
Considering the processing fees levied by the CC networks, is it really accurate to say that only the ones drowning in debt are profitable, desirable customers?
If you are a successful business owner who puts through $100K a month and never misses a payment, well, there's no interest being paid but assuming that the issuer gets a 2% cut (or whatever) of that amount, then that's a great haul.
And even for a regular salary-earning consumer, if you're a loyal user of one particular card and you put through $25K a year on a card where you basically pay for the overhead and then some through the annual fee which is normal behaviour outside of FT-world, it's hard to see how that isn't profitable for the issuer.
If you are a successful business owner who puts through $100K a month and never misses a payment, well, there's no interest being paid but assuming that the issuer gets a 2% cut (or whatever) of that amount, then that's a great haul.
And even for a regular salary-earning consumer, if you're a loyal user of one particular card and you put through $25K a year on a card where you basically pay for the overhead and then some through the annual fee which is normal behaviour outside of FT-world, it's hard to see how that isn't profitable for the issuer.
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist


Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,743
I don't think churning itself is done for right this minute. However, I actually see a situation where credit cards in general become more difficult and less worthwhile to use over time. I've already seen some smaller businesses who've never had limits on credit card use before start instituting minimums since they're now allowed. Businesses are also now allowed to steer customers towards debit cards and cheaper (for them) credit card products, though I haven't seen much of that yet.
And there's also the possibility of the government managing to cap credit card interchange like in Europe, which if that happens means there won't be a miles/points game at all any more.
And there's also the possibility of the government managing to cap credit card interchange like in Europe, which if that happens means there won't be a miles/points game at all any more.
#24


Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: YWG
Programs: Aeroplan, MileagePlus, Marriott Rewards
Posts: 2,208
I'd say the name of the game if you're a CC issuer is get cards into the hands of the public... and that's why churning will probably never go away completely, even if it were to become a bit less lucrative than it is now.
#25
Original Poster




Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,283
Yes, bonuses do become more generous during a recession, but if these new cc rules stick, it won't matter as much to us, anyway, because we will be restricted.
Last edited by joer1212; Jun 29, 2015 at 1:35 pm
#26
Original Poster




Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,283
I hate to sound so negative. As I stated in an earlier comment, I have only been in this game since 2012. Perhaps some of you guys have that have been collecting miles longer can enlighten me if anything similar to this has ever happened?
Last edited by joer1212; Jun 29, 2015 at 1:39 pm
#27
Original Poster




Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,283
I agree, but at a much slower pace, which makes all the difference. It's going to be akin to taking a 50% pay cut-- you're still earning a salary, just not quite the same salary as before.
#28
Original Poster




Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,283
Considering the processing fees levied by the CC networks, is it really accurate to say that only the ones drowning in debt are profitable, desirable customers?
If you are a successful business owner who puts through $100K a month and never misses a payment, well, there's no interest being paid but assuming that the issuer gets a 2% cut (or whatever) of that amount, then that's a great haul.
And even for a regular salary-earning consumer, if you're a loyal user of one particular card and you put through $25K a year on a card where you basically pay for the overhead and then some through the annual fee which is normal behaviour outside of FT-world, it's hard to see how that isn't profitable for the issuer.
If you are a successful business owner who puts through $100K a month and never misses a payment, well, there's no interest being paid but assuming that the issuer gets a 2% cut (or whatever) of that amount, then that's a great haul.
And even for a regular salary-earning consumer, if you're a loyal user of one particular card and you put through $25K a year on a card where you basically pay for the overhead and then some through the annual fee which is normal behaviour outside of FT-world, it's hard to see how that isn't profitable for the issuer.
#29
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 441
The shy has not fallen and I agree this thread is overly dramatic. There are so many opportunities for those willing to learn and impliment them. It is very easy to earn well into 6 figures of miles per month, plus $$$$, without even earning a single sign up bonus.
#30
Original Poster




Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,283
If it exists, I haven't heard of it.

