Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
#6151
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Short of the SCOTUS ruling that the Fair Credit Billing Act as unconstitutional as the rule of the entire US, which is highly unlikely to happen (precisely which constitutional right or SCOTUS decision does the Fair Credit Billing Act infringe upon?), my take is that nothing is going to change when it comes to who bears the cost of fraud regardless we go to Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature or no CVM or Chip & DNA or whatever future authentications maybe.
Another take would be what if Bank A decides they'll keep refunding fraudulent claims after all, over Bank B which doesn't? People will then ditch Bank B and decide to go with Bank A instead. So that's another protection people have: competition between banks.
Last edited by kebosabi; Aug 14, 2014 at 5:23 pm
#6152
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,934
Well beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. We've been struggling with the definition of "pure" chip and pin cards for the past 75 pages or so. While others may disagree, to me basically a "pure" chip and pin card is one which requires a pin when used at Walmart. (Bear in mind, for purchases under $50 if a credit card is signature priority, Walmart will not request a signature but with a "pure" chip and pin card will always request a pin). Also a "pure" chip and pin card is one which will require a pin when used in emv terminals in Europe and elsewhere that support offline pin transactions.
That being said, I realize others disagree. To some, as long as the card will nwork in unpersonneled kiosks, then it is a "pure" chip and pin card. Okay. To each his or her own.
That being said, I realize others disagree. To some, as long as the card will nwork in unpersonneled kiosks, then it is a "pure" chip and pin card. Okay. To each his or her own.
I agree with your definition of "pure" chip & PIN. (I used it myself in a post about a two years ago, that I just found searching this thread for "pure".)
But the term I see most often used here, and most often argued about here, is instead "true" chip & PIN. And that's all I see in the last couple pages.
While it's easy to think about what "pure" chip & PIN might mean (it means it uses chip & PIN rather than something chip & signature everywhere there's a PIN input), what "true" chip & PIN could mean is much more in the eye of the beholder.
I thus reject the whole concept of calling anything "true" chip & PIN. Focusing on whether a card is "pure" chip & PIN is ok, focusing on whether it's "offline" or "onlne" PIN is ok, focusing on which method gets priority over which other is ok, but "true" is just too loaded (and nebulous) a word to possibly be objective when applied to EMV.
#6153
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
In addition, even if the banks somehow manages to convince federal legislators to repeal the Fair Credit Billing Act over the voices of the American consumers, there's nothing stopping the individual states to adopt their own consumer credit protection laws as well. Many states have their own consumer protection laws. What are banks going to do? Overturn all 50 state laws in each individual state supreme courts? That's going to be a costly endeavor in itself.
Short of the SCOTUS ruling that the Fair Credit Billing Act as unconstitutional as the rule of the entire US, which is highly unlikely to happen (precisely which constitutional right or SCOTUS decision does the Fair Credit Billing Act infringe upon?), my take is that nothing is going to change when it comes to who bears the cost of fraud regardless we go to Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature or no CVM or Chip & DNA or whatever future authentications maybe.
Another take would be what if Bank A decides they'll keep refunding fraudulent claims after all, over Bank B which doesn't? People will then ditch Bank B and decide to go with Bank A instead. So that's another protection people have: competition between banks.
Short of the SCOTUS ruling that the Fair Credit Billing Act as unconstitutional as the rule of the entire US, which is highly unlikely to happen (precisely which constitutional right or SCOTUS decision does the Fair Credit Billing Act infringe upon?), my take is that nothing is going to change when it comes to who bears the cost of fraud regardless we go to Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature or no CVM or Chip & DNA or whatever future authentications maybe.
Another take would be what if Bank A decides they'll keep refunding fraudulent claims after all, over Bank B which doesn't? People will then ditch Bank B and decide to go with Bank A instead. So that's another protection people have: competition between banks.
#6154
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Please show me where. Also show me where someone even once recently mentioned "pure" chip & PIN.
I agree with your definition of "pure" chip & PIN. (I used it myself in a post about a two years ago, that I just found searching this thread for "pure".)
But the term I see most often used here, and most often argued about here, is instead "true" chip & PIN. And that's all I see in the last couple pages.
While it's easy to think about what "pure" chip & PIN might mean (it means it uses chip & PIN rather than something chip & signature everywhere there's a PIN input), what "true" chip & PIN could mean is much more in the eye of the beholder.
I thus reject the whole concept of calling anything "true" chip & PIN. Focusing on whether a card is "pure" chip & PIN is ok, focusing on whether it's "offline" or "onlne" PIN is ok, focusing on which method gets priority over which other is ok, but "true" is just too loaded (and nebulous) a word to possibly be objective when applied to EMV.
I agree with your definition of "pure" chip & PIN. (I used it myself in a post about a two years ago, that I just found searching this thread for "pure".)
But the term I see most often used here, and most often argued about here, is instead "true" chip & PIN. And that's all I see in the last couple pages.
While it's easy to think about what "pure" chip & PIN might mean (it means it uses chip & PIN rather than something chip & signature everywhere there's a PIN input), what "true" chip & PIN could mean is much more in the eye of the beholder.
I thus reject the whole concept of calling anything "true" chip & PIN. Focusing on whether a card is "pure" chip & PIN is ok, focusing on whether it's "offline" or "onlne" PIN is ok, focusing on which method gets priority over which other is ok, but "true" is just too loaded (and nebulous) a word to possibly be objective when applied to EMV.
But we can all agree on one thing. The USA is not going chip and pin; it's going chip and signature with probable chip and pin capabilities in many if not most cases. My point is we haven't yet agreed on the definition here.
Pure or true, we're not getting chip and pin in the USA. We're getting emv chipped cards but it's still causing confusion to many.
Hope we don't get into an argument over this. I think my definition is the simplest to understand. Either the card asks for a signature at Walmart for purchases over $50 (in which case it's chip and signature) or it asks for a pin. Only the UNFCU cards and the original USAA cards issued before 25 April qualify for US issuers.
Can we all agree on this?
#6155
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,067
I give it three years before the US is primarily chip-and-PIN.
#6156
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 54
Not sure if this will help anyone who is looking for an EMV card, but here goes....
Within the past week I've spoken with representatives from Bank of America, Citi, AMEX, USAA, State Dept. FCU, Andrews FCU. None of these card issuers (perhaps with the exception of USAA) are providing cards that allow chip and pin as priority in the CVM list.
I was unable to determine if USAA's new cards are chip and pin (priority 1). The USAA representative I spoke with insists that they are guaranteed chip and pin, however, recent forum posts that I have read have mentioned that USAA recently modified their CVM list to give priority to chip and signature. The USAA representative even went so far as to say their EMV cards will only work as chip and pin. No chip and signature. No no-signature. Just chip and pin. Her stance did not waiver even when I reminded her that the lack of active chip and pin terminals in the US would render the card nearly useless for their US customers. It was unbelievable what I was hearing. So, until someone can post the CVM list for a new USAA EMV card, I will leave this as undetermined.
As recent as 90 days ago I have used both the Bank of America (Travel Rewards) and the AMEX (Hilton HHonors) cards while in the UK. Both of them are EMV cards, yet I can confirm that neither function as chip and pin.
Earlier this week I verified with State Dept. FCU senior management that their cards are also chip and signature. Here is a quote from their response to me: "We are currently in the process of working with our vendors to allow the ability to switch the SDFCU EMV credit card from a chip/signature to a chip/pin. This is still in the testing stage, since there are multiple vendors involved. We do not have an ETA at this time."
Andrews FCU confirmed to me that their cards also default to chip and signature.
I am in the process of setting up an account with UNFCU in order to have their EMV card. Everything that I have read says they are the only issuers in the US who are known to offer chip and pin as priority 1. I will post back here with the CVM list from their card at a later date.
What I have found is that 90% of the customer service representatives do not know what chip and pin means. At first they think I am either referring to the ATM (cash advance) function or the chip and signature. I almost always have to explain to them how chip and pin cards actually operate.
I have yet to speak with anyone who has heard of the CVM list. The representatives have no idea that their chips can be programmed to function in different ways.
Within the past week I've spoken with representatives from Bank of America, Citi, AMEX, USAA, State Dept. FCU, Andrews FCU. None of these card issuers (perhaps with the exception of USAA) are providing cards that allow chip and pin as priority in the CVM list.
I was unable to determine if USAA's new cards are chip and pin (priority 1). The USAA representative I spoke with insists that they are guaranteed chip and pin, however, recent forum posts that I have read have mentioned that USAA recently modified their CVM list to give priority to chip and signature. The USAA representative even went so far as to say their EMV cards will only work as chip and pin. No chip and signature. No no-signature. Just chip and pin. Her stance did not waiver even when I reminded her that the lack of active chip and pin terminals in the US would render the card nearly useless for their US customers. It was unbelievable what I was hearing. So, until someone can post the CVM list for a new USAA EMV card, I will leave this as undetermined.
As recent as 90 days ago I have used both the Bank of America (Travel Rewards) and the AMEX (Hilton HHonors) cards while in the UK. Both of them are EMV cards, yet I can confirm that neither function as chip and pin.
Earlier this week I verified with State Dept. FCU senior management that their cards are also chip and signature. Here is a quote from their response to me: "We are currently in the process of working with our vendors to allow the ability to switch the SDFCU EMV credit card from a chip/signature to a chip/pin. This is still in the testing stage, since there are multiple vendors involved. We do not have an ETA at this time."
Andrews FCU confirmed to me that their cards also default to chip and signature.
I am in the process of setting up an account with UNFCU in order to have their EMV card. Everything that I have read says they are the only issuers in the US who are known to offer chip and pin as priority 1. I will post back here with the CVM list from their card at a later date.
What I have found is that 90% of the customer service representatives do not know what chip and pin means. At first they think I am either referring to the ATM (cash advance) function or the chip and signature. I almost always have to explain to them how chip and pin cards actually operate.
I have yet to speak with anyone who has heard of the CVM list. The representatives have no idea that their chips can be programmed to function in different ways.
Last edited by kv1; Aug 14, 2014 at 7:36 pm
#6157
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Not sure if this will help anyone who is looking for an EMV card, but here goes....
Within the past week I've spoken with representatives from Bank of America, Citi, AMEX, USAA, State Dept. FCU, Andrews FCU. None of these card issuers (perhaps with the exception of USAA) are providing cards that allow chip and pin as priority in the CVM list.
I was unable to determine if USAA's new cards are true chip and pin (priority 1). The USAA representative I spoke with insists that they are guaranteed chip and pin, however, recent forum posts that I have read have mentioned that USAA recently modified their CVM list to give priority to chip and signature. The USAA representative even went so far as to say their EMV cards will only work as chip and pin. No chip and signature. No no-signature. Just chip and pin. Her stance did not waiver even when I reminded her that the lack of active chip and pin terminals in the US would render the card nearly useless for their US customers. It was unbelievable what I was hearing. So, until someone can post the CVM list for a new USAA EMV card, I will leave this as undetermined.
As recent as 90 days ago I have used both the Bank of America (Travel Rewards) and the AMEX (Hilton HHonors) cards while in the UK. Both of them are EMV cards, yet I can confirm that neither function as chip and pin.
Earlier this week I verified with State Dept. FCU senior management that their cards are also chip and signature. Here is a quote from their response to me: "We are currently in the process of working with our vendors to allow the ability to switch the SDFCU EMV credit card from a chip/signature to a chip/pin. This is still in the testing stage, since there are multiple vendors involved. We do not have an ETA at this time."
Andrews FCU confirmed to me that their cards also default to chip and signature.
I am in the process of setting up an account with UNFCU in order to have their EMV card. Everything that I have read says they are the only issuers in the US who are known to offer true chip and pin as priority 1. I will post back here with the CVM list from their card at a later date.
What I have found is that 90% of the customer service representatives do not know what chip and pin means. At first they think I am either referring to the ATM (cash advance) function or the chip and signature. I almost always have to explain to them how chip and pin cards actually operate.
I have yet to speak with anyone who has heard of the CVM list. The representatives have no idea that their chips can be programmed to function in different ways.
Within the past week I've spoken with representatives from Bank of America, Citi, AMEX, USAA, State Dept. FCU, Andrews FCU. None of these card issuers (perhaps with the exception of USAA) are providing cards that allow chip and pin as priority in the CVM list.
I was unable to determine if USAA's new cards are true chip and pin (priority 1). The USAA representative I spoke with insists that they are guaranteed chip and pin, however, recent forum posts that I have read have mentioned that USAA recently modified their CVM list to give priority to chip and signature. The USAA representative even went so far as to say their EMV cards will only work as chip and pin. No chip and signature. No no-signature. Just chip and pin. Her stance did not waiver even when I reminded her that the lack of active chip and pin terminals in the US would render the card nearly useless for their US customers. It was unbelievable what I was hearing. So, until someone can post the CVM list for a new USAA EMV card, I will leave this as undetermined.
As recent as 90 days ago I have used both the Bank of America (Travel Rewards) and the AMEX (Hilton HHonors) cards while in the UK. Both of them are EMV cards, yet I can confirm that neither function as chip and pin.
Earlier this week I verified with State Dept. FCU senior management that their cards are also chip and signature. Here is a quote from their response to me: "We are currently in the process of working with our vendors to allow the ability to switch the SDFCU EMV credit card from a chip/signature to a chip/pin. This is still in the testing stage, since there are multiple vendors involved. We do not have an ETA at this time."
Andrews FCU confirmed to me that their cards also default to chip and signature.
I am in the process of setting up an account with UNFCU in order to have their EMV card. Everything that I have read says they are the only issuers in the US who are known to offer true chip and pin as priority 1. I will post back here with the CVM list from their card at a later date.
What I have found is that 90% of the customer service representatives do not know what chip and pin means. At first they think I am either referring to the ATM (cash advance) function or the chip and signature. I almost always have to explain to them how chip and pin cards actually operate.
I have yet to speak with anyone who has heard of the CVM list. The representatives have no idea that their chips can be programmed to function in different ways.
This year, I needed to have the card replaced before I left for Europe. Checking it out for the first time at Walmart, for a purchase of $27 I was not asked for my pin (nor a signature but then again we know Walmart's policy is not to bother with signatures under $50 but always asks for a pin on pin priority cards). Went through a whole sweries of angry e-mails with USAA and at first they denied they had made a change and that it was the merchant's pos terminal that determines chip and pin or chip and signature something we know is not true. Finally somebody admitted that in April, they had changed to a chip and signature priority. Why I asked. For business reasons I was told. What business reasins I asked. The person who claimed she worked in the CEO's office at USAA wouldn't elaborate. I used the card (the new one) several times in Europe this summer and was asked for a signature not a pin every time. You can make your own judgment as to just what is going on.
Now somebodyt did do a read of the cvm on a newly issued USAA card. But of course this thread is so long, I can't tell you where that person's post is but it's somewhere here, believe me. The poster then said my hypothesis was correct that for some reason, USAA had changed the priority list on its newly issued cards and they were now chip and signature priority. Also if you read their own stuff somewhere on their web site, they tell you that when using their emv cards for purchases, you will be asked either for a signature or a pin depending on the merchant (a lie of course).
Why don't you call the ceo's office at USAA as csr's rarely have any idea of what they're talking about. I will stand on what I said. Any USAA world mastercard issued after April 2014 (unless they changed back) is a chip and signature card with chip and pin capabilities say at unpersonneled kiosks. Trust me. I'm not making any of this up and for the most part, I think I know what I'm talking about.
#6158
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 54
For those who like to read about the technical stuff (and learn the difference between offline and online)...
White Paper_Cardholder-Verification-Method.cfm
CSCU EMV Essentials
For those who like their voices to be heard. A nice resource for contacting people in the EMV industry...
Smartcard Alliance 2013 Yearbook
White Paper_Cardholder-Verification-Method.cfm
CSCU EMV Essentials
For those who like their voices to be heard. A nice resource for contacting people in the EMV industry...
Smartcard Alliance 2013 Yearbook
Last edited by kv1; Aug 14, 2014 at 7:34 pm
#6159
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 54
I tried to find the post where the person showed the latest USAA CVM but I couldn't find it. This thread is just too long. Thanks for reaffirming what I've read elsewhere. This is an important issue, especially for those of us who make frequent visits to Europe.
#6160
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hatfield PA, 19440
Posts: 10
I am in the process of setting up an account with UNFCU in order to have their EMV card. Everything that I have read says they are the only issuers in the US who are known to offer chip and pin as priority 1. I will post back here with the CVM list from their card at a later date.
#6161
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Sorry, can't agree. I bet the Target cards will be chip and PIN. Walmart has already committed to chip and PIN cards next year. American Express at least has some people high up in the company who see them ultimately moving to chip and PIN. Give it a few years. Just can't happen soon enough...
#6162
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
Sorry, can't agree. I bet the Target cards will be chip and PIN. Walmart has already committed to chip and PIN cards next year. American Express at least has some people high up in the company who see them ultimately moving to chip and PIN. Give it a few years. Just can't happen soon enough...
#6163
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NYC
Posts: 538
Otherwise, as the long-time holder of a USAA Visa, I am encouraged by their plan to issue EMV cards to all cardholders over the next 18 months, no matter how "unpure/untrue" it may be in the end.
#6164
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Sorry, can't agree. I bet the Target cards will be chip and PIN. Walmart has already committed to chip and PIN cards next year. American Express at least has some people high up in the company who see them ultimately moving to chip and PIN. Give it a few years. Just can't happen soon enough...
Do bear in mind Chase told us back in March or April that chip and pin cards are coming. Well then again, so is Christmas!
#6165
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Sorry, can't agree. I bet the Target cards will be chip and PIN. Walmart has already committed to chip and PIN cards next year. American Express at least has some people high up in the company who see them ultimately moving to chip and PIN. Give it a few years. Just can't happen soon enough...