GloballyServiced

Not necessarily. I’m a huge supporter of this vaccine for the purpose of preventing serious illness especially for high risk people. But I’m not a fan of it being a mass vaccination campaign as a method to eliminate covid or even “control cases” via an immunity passport for international travel.

I think we will be watching on the sideline as cases continue to do their thing, global inefficiencies and quarantines continue, and then eventually people realize it’s time to put on big boy pants and accept that covid is here to stay and move around as it pleases.

Lots of money will change hands in the process, and tourism reliant and lower/middle class will be on the losing end.

warakorn

The US (Federal and State Governments) is not going to abide by some "international COVID vaccination certificate requirements", esp. when China had a hand in defining these requirements.

Well, I have to wonder. How do undocumented foreigners (esp. coming in from Latin America) can get a vaccination shot in the US? Are you sure that every vaccination site requires seeing an ID (e.g. passports from foreigners). I very much doubt that.

And, I predict the CDC card is sufficient to enter all major tourist countries. Why?
How many MAGAfolks, who do not want to be vaccinated, but are planing to fly to Europe for vacationing (and are potential buyers of fake certificates)? That number (and percentage) must be super low.

GloballyServiced

They do not. There are people on this very forum that described walking into Walmart with nothing but a pulse and getting a vaccine. And just wait until people come to terms with the need for tracking booster timelines and waning immunity.

warakorn

So, here we go. Even if there were a political will in the US, building up a secure digitial vaccination certificate system would be technically impossible -> because for many shots there no verifiable digital trace in any system.

GloballyServiced

Yep, which is why I’m convinced that the concept of immunity passports to eliminate or control the spread of covid in western countries will be nothing more than a time waste and money grab.

I would absolutely love it if I’m wrong, but from any observation of past performance I don’t think I will be.

percysmith

Hong Kong mooted antibody tests on all arrivals https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cath...l#post33235128
Dropped for now because we haven't figured out logistically how it works.

Not sure if a blood draw test can be created to determine vaccine antibody vs virus antibody, but if there's a way, we'll look into it.

8420PR

Yes, testing can determine if you have antibodies from the virus or the vaccine.

Source: https://khub.net/documents/135939561...=1616002462349

Israel allows vaccinated or recovered people to skip the 14 day quarantine, but if you received your vaccine abroad you must take an antibody test at an approved lab - they obviously don't trust the CDC (or other countries equivalent) cards.

Source: https://www.gov.il/en/Departments/Gu...chapterIndex=5

I think the Israel approach is overkill for a country with endemic covid presence (e.g. Israel, Europe, US) where borders do not need to be watertight against COVID, however might be something for countries like Australia and New Zealand to consider.

warakorn

Wow! These antibody tests are highly unreliable. So no travel to Israel for me.

downinit

The databases that exist are not comprehensive, but they have enough data to create a master reference where one could search out lot/batch number and location, which could be quite useful in verifying if the information on the CDC card is valid. The large sites that did require some kind of ID (even illegal immigrants can often provide some kind of proof of residence, such as a bill of some kind) will have a record of everyone who received a dose. If a batch number is copied from some random IG photo onto a fraudulent card, and that number was only administered at a site which entered everyone into the database, that makes a pretty clear case that the card is not valid. And people traveling abroad with their CDC card would have a hard time justifying why they could not produce an ID for the vaccination when they possess a passport and the means to travel. Of course, there is very little will to actively hunt down people using fraudulent cards, but that could change if a few high profile cases cause a major incident. The key take-away here is that a fake CDC card may get you in the door, but it will not hold up under scrutiny if something should happen.

GUWonder

There are lots of reasons why someone getting a vaccination shot in the US may not have government-issued ID to present when getting vaccinated. But none of that stops people from getting vaccinated and having their CDC card's vaccination record under their name.

There are at least a hundred thousand Americans abroad who can't get a timely US passport renewal done abroad but are still admissible into the US. Some of them come back to the US to get vaccinated and do their passport renewals in the US. Many of them don't have a currently valid US ID while their US passport is out for renewal and they are getting vaccinated in the US. I doubt that border control types will be making a stink about US CDC cards for such vaccinated Americans just because they got vaccinated without showing ID and yet have a CDC vaccination card under their name.

warakorn

How do these people manage to fly to the US without a valid passport?

GUWonder

The point is that US citizens who have a problem with easily getting a timely renewal of their passports outside of the US do come to the US to get vaccinated and have no US ID while getting vaccinated at US vaccination sites. In other words, it's not just "illegal immigrants" who are getting vaccinated in the US without showing government-issued ID and getting filled-in CDC vaccination record cards.

US citizens with soon-expiring passports still have a valid US passport to fly with the US, as long as the carrier doesn't attempt to stop them. For at least a hundred thousand such Americans abroad, they cannot quickly get the US passport renewed outside of the US. For such Americans renewing passports, having family reunifications and vaccination desires, many of them have made, are making or will make their way over to the US with expiring US passports so as to get vaccinated in the US while renewing passports.

Without a valid US passport, some of them may have a valid non-US passport that can get them to the US or to Mexico (if they aren't already in Mexico). For years, the CBP used to even have a link on its site indicating how US dual-citizens could fly to the US with an ESTA on US VWP country passports and what they should do on arrival.

Without a currently valid passport, some US citizens abroad can still manage to get to a US land border and then get admitted as US citizens that way. Mexico is home to a huge number of US citizens, some of which do end up at US ports of entry without a currently valid US passport. A relatively recently expired US passport is quite routinely accepted by CBP as proof of US citizenship and US identity. One of the first things such returning Americans do is go get their passport renewed. And nowadays one of the things at the front of the line is to get vaccinated and get the CDC vaccination record card.

adrianlondon

Many (most?) countries will let you enter your own country on an expired passport. I guess you'd need to be very convincing, or use another passport, to board the flight in the first place.

I know this is true for the UK.

13901

They're checking.

My brother's family and my father live in Piedmont and, when they were 'red', both had reasons for travelling outside their municipality (namely work in the case of my brother and volunteering activities in the case of my old man, who ferries the elderly to hospitals and vaccination centres to get jabbed). Both have been stopped more than once by the Carabinieri. It happens once every three occasions, more or less, but in smaller centres it does show.

Plus, don't forget Italy's most pervasive form of control: inquisitive pensioners. More widespread than CCTVs in Xinjiang, more alert than a meerkat and definitely not afraid of meddling/ratting you out. I read an article on a local page of the La Stampa newspaper where an exasperated professional long-distance runner had exemptions for her training (getting ready for Tokyo and so on): she trained along tracks bang in the middle of nowhere, amongst the fields in Vercelli province, where you have nothing but rice paddies, but got still called out by some alert elderly gentleman/lady. She ended up buying a treadmill and running at home.

On the topic of vaccines, my family in Hungary is mostly 100% vaccinated. They're getting cards that look and feel like their ID cards, but most of the info on the vaccine (type, doses, when they got it etc) isn't on it. Rather, there's a QR code where I believe the info can be accessed.

invisible

This is what Singapore digital vaccination proof looks like at this moment - screenshot from an app.

On paper, it is pretty much the same information - plus a logo of the health ministry. It does not even have my name, just the local ID number.