Has our Forum Changed?
Apr 17, 2006 | 10:12 am
#16
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NYC
Programs: BAEC Silver, AA LTP 2MM
Posts: 3,358
Originally Posted by puddy
You are correct... it is a community, as I, myself, have met many other members. I didn't mean to imply that FlyerTalk is not an important web site and community... just meant that it's not worth getting upset if a question gets repeated a few times.
Apr 17, 2006 | 10:30 am
#17
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wacko, TX
Programs: CO (Au), AA, Priority Club (Au), Hilton HHonors (Au)
Posts: 61
My two cents...
I agree with several previous posters that I'm put off by the many curt responses to "do a search" or "search co.com" when responding to newbies with questions that may seem simple. It's hardly the most welcoming approach. In the newbies defense (probably qualifying myself as one), it should be noted that the search function leaves alot to be desired. In my experience, about 75% of the time it just times out or sends me through an endless "log in" loop without returning any search results. Rather than fight with a useless search feature, it's just easier to post a question and rely on the kindness of strangers to quickly answer the question... In a welcoming community that seeks to help others via sharing information and experiences, one shouldn't be "attacked" for asking a simple question. If you think the question is beneath you to answer, then just move on. No need to play the hallway monitor. Just my two cents.
Apr 17, 2006 | 10:57 am
#18
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Clinging to the edifices of a decadent past from the biggest city in America nobody really cares about.
Programs: (ಠ_ಠ)
Posts: 9,077
I agree with the "do a search"
Guys and Gals, I must say that I personally do agree with the "do a search" mentality. FT is a community but it is also a collection of knowledge and information - and to this end - duplicate/ repetitive posts regarding the same topic serve to scatter the valuable information we have.
Likewise, puddy made an excellent point: if you tell someone to do a search, offer some recommendations. For the simply everyday questions there are often simple every day answers that have already been posted. If the experienced users help out the new ones with a
than not only can we a) cut down on duplicate threads b) instruct new members on how to best query the collective FT knowledge c) help establish the precedent of searching before posting.
I don't think berating one to use the search feature is helpful or productive; after all, if the poster new about the search feature, than s/he probably would not have posted an ad-nausem question in the first place.
I guess what I'm trying to say is encourage people to search, but do so in a constructive way.
Anyway, I just want to let y'all know that I've had a blast on FT, I have enjoyed meeting you and am looking forward to many more rewarding years. ^
Safe Travels
Likewise, puddy made an excellent point: if you tell someone to do a search, offer some recommendations. For the simply everyday questions there are often simple every day answers that have already been posted. If the experienced users help out the new ones with a
than not only can we a) cut down on duplicate threads b) instruct new members on how to best query the collective FT knowledge c) help establish the precedent of searching before posting.I don't think berating one to use the search feature is helpful or productive; after all, if the poster new about the search feature, than s/he probably would not have posted an ad-nausem question in the first place.
I guess what I'm trying to say is encourage people to search, but do so in a constructive way.
Anyway, I just want to let y'all know that I've had a blast on FT, I have enjoyed meeting you and am looking forward to many more rewarding years. ^
Safe Travels
Apr 17, 2006 | 1:11 pm
#19
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Central Florida
Programs: Bonvoy-Gold, HH-Gold, UA-Gold, *A-Gold, Hyatt-Discoverist
Posts: 2,046
I think it's just himan nature...some people are very helpful, some people are annoyed with you for even asking a question....
Back in 2004 my parents were taking a KL flight from AMS-ORD in C class...I wanted to get them the best seats in the upper deck...I figured this was an EASY question that any experienced KL flyer knew right off the top their heads and would be simply reply...
Doing a search for me was a waste of time because I felt by the time I got the right keywords and searched though all the possible answers to the right answer that the amount of time it would take for me to bang out the question and to have someone respond was significantly less that the search time...
Well, I went to the KL forum and posted the question...the first person gave the quick answer that I expected which took the person maybe 2 seconds to posts.."Row 77, Upstairs" plus a link to a seatmap! To me the question is answered and the topic could have been closed for all I cared...
The NEXT person SLAMMED me and made feel stupid by saying I should have done a search...that poster apologized later....and I was almost at 1000 posts by then!!!
So, it just depends on people and the moon!
- HF
Back in 2004 my parents were taking a KL flight from AMS-ORD in C class...I wanted to get them the best seats in the upper deck...I figured this was an EASY question that any experienced KL flyer knew right off the top their heads and would be simply reply...
Doing a search for me was a waste of time because I felt by the time I got the right keywords and searched though all the possible answers to the right answer that the amount of time it would take for me to bang out the question and to have someone respond was significantly less that the search time...
Well, I went to the KL forum and posted the question...the first person gave the quick answer that I expected which took the person maybe 2 seconds to posts.."Row 77, Upstairs" plus a link to a seatmap! To me the question is answered and the topic could have been closed for all I cared...
The NEXT person SLAMMED me and made feel stupid by saying I should have done a search...that poster apologized later....and I was almost at 1000 posts by then!!!
So, it just depends on people and the moon!
- HF
Apr 17, 2006 | 10:15 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by puddy
Here are my points:
1. Telling someone to "Try a search" is not helpful in any way. The seach function can be very useful, but as others have pointed out a) it's not always easy to get the results you want and b) the info in a search result may very well be outdated. Additionally, many posters are new and wouldn't think to look (and they definitely don't think to look in the Help/Rules section before posting).
If you feel the need to direct someone to do a search, you should provide a keyword or phrase that will be helpful to the user. This has been done for me in the past, and I found it very useful.
2. The same goes for checking CO.com. It's very easy to provide a link for specific information. Many times people just don't know where to look.
3. If you feel that you don't have the time or energy to help a poster out by giving useful info, then don't reply at all. You don't have to reply to every post.
4. Because of these "Did you try a search?" posts, people have now started to preempt their posts with "I tried a search." People should not feel the need to do this.
5. You mentioned that you always have a lighthearted tone and make posts with humor. Everyone should know that tone does not translate well over the web. While some might think they were being lighthearted, others might see it as condescending.
6. I'm not trying to be rude here, but you are not the moderator of this forum. If xyzzy or umguy feel people are not searching enough before posting or not properly naming their posts, they can take action. If you are bothered enough by these posts, you should probably PM them to see what can be done. If it's really that bad, perhaps a sticky "READ BEFORE POSTING" post would be necessary, although I don't believe it is and would not want to see one here.
This is a simple FF forum where people can go to learn and share information. It's not worth getting upset over a few questions being asked multiple times or some misleading post titles.
1. Telling someone to "Try a search" is not helpful in any way. The seach function can be very useful, but as others have pointed out a) it's not always easy to get the results you want and b) the info in a search result may very well be outdated. Additionally, many posters are new and wouldn't think to look (and they definitely don't think to look in the Help/Rules section before posting).
If you feel the need to direct someone to do a search, you should provide a keyword or phrase that will be helpful to the user. This has been done for me in the past, and I found it very useful.
2. The same goes for checking CO.com. It's very easy to provide a link for specific information. Many times people just don't know where to look.
3. If you feel that you don't have the time or energy to help a poster out by giving useful info, then don't reply at all. You don't have to reply to every post.
4. Because of these "Did you try a search?" posts, people have now started to preempt their posts with "I tried a search." People should not feel the need to do this.
5. You mentioned that you always have a lighthearted tone and make posts with humor. Everyone should know that tone does not translate well over the web. While some might think they were being lighthearted, others might see it as condescending.
6. I'm not trying to be rude here, but you are not the moderator of this forum. If xyzzy or umguy feel people are not searching enough before posting or not properly naming their posts, they can take action. If you are bothered enough by these posts, you should probably PM them to see what can be done. If it's really that bad, perhaps a sticky "READ BEFORE POSTING" post would be necessary, although I don't believe it is and would not want to see one here.
This is a simple FF forum where people can go to learn and share information. It's not worth getting upset over a few questions being asked multiple times or some misleading post titles.
BTW, I have my own opinions about what this forum is about. For example, I think that a lot of the posts are just a waste of time. I don't think that asking about where the Peter Maxx 777 is or discussing the sale of blue carpets do anyone any good. But that is just my opinion. I just skip them and go on. Who knows, these may be the topics that some members live for. To each his own. I get what I am looking for from this forum. If that stops, I will stop visiting.
Apr 18, 2006 | 12:25 am
#21
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: CO Gold
Posts: 406
Weirdly enough, I sensed a change in the mood around the time of the "Do." Perhaps it could have been the stress of a New Year weighing us all down? So far I've had zero luck getting the search function to work on my mac, so I refrain from asking questions unless desperately needed just to avoid the quick response. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread as I've already seen a difference with posters adding links and just being nice again. Well done.
Apr 18, 2006 | 12:56 am
#22
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC, LON
Programs: *
Posts: 3,174
Originally Posted by vincom
It seems to me it is becoming a subject across various threads about how our forums seems to have "changed"; I hope by starting this thread we can keep the verbiage out of other threads to keep them all on topic.
I still view our forum as a very welcoming an fun place to openly communicate our thoughts and idea.
It just seems to me that:
1. Sometimes a search would yield more information as some subject have been long discussed and much information has been complied about them - such subjects including; ways to search seat availability, Continental to Hawai'i, Business First Upgrades, ZFV - Philadelphia, and etc. Why start a new thread and piece together information when a search could reveal much more information that we may postr over a few days?
and
2. Other times a visit to continental.com or nwa.com would easily answer questions - I thought it was just sort of common sense to look at the soruce first befor trying to get third hand information - we can be wrong here somtimes - why accidentaly give the wrong information when one can easily get the most correct information directly from the source?
I don't mean to get mean with anyone, but it just seems we have lost a bit of common sense on here. I enjoy everyones contibution to our discussions and enjoy this fourm, but it seems some people feel our forum has changed - and clearly we need to talk about the situation. Open communication is the key...
-Vincent
I still view our forum as a very welcoming an fun place to openly communicate our thoughts and idea.
It just seems to me that:
1. Sometimes a search would yield more information as some subject have been long discussed and much information has been complied about them - such subjects including; ways to search seat availability, Continental to Hawai'i, Business First Upgrades, ZFV - Philadelphia, and etc. Why start a new thread and piece together information when a search could reveal much more information that we may postr over a few days?
and
2. Other times a visit to continental.com or nwa.com would easily answer questions - I thought it was just sort of common sense to look at the soruce first befor trying to get third hand information - we can be wrong here somtimes - why accidentaly give the wrong information when one can easily get the most correct information directly from the source?
I don't mean to get mean with anyone, but it just seems we have lost a bit of common sense on here. I enjoy everyones contibution to our discussions and enjoy this fourm, but it seems some people feel our forum has changed - and clearly we need to talk about the situation. Open communication is the key...
-Vincent
I think both points you raise are signs of a bolstering community in that they reflect our growing numbers. Such threads are usually written by new members or people "visiting" from other forums who are not as knowledgable about the forum or about CO.com; as time goes on they inegrate and ask fewer such questions. We should be welcoming to new members despite their naivety (as we would have all displayed at some time in out FT past). Personally I think that these are small (albiet irritating) matters but do not in any way suggest a decline in this great board.
Apr 18, 2006 | 7:32 am
#23
Original Poster
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: EWR (Wayne Township, NJ) and PHX
Programs: CO OnePass Plat and SPG - Plat, Marriott Plat (don't use -it's a comp), AmericaWest CP
Posts: 4,810
Originally Posted by ani90
Personally I think that these are small (albiet irritating) matters but do not in any way suggest a decline in this great board.
I figured - let's get this in the open and talk about the situation at hand. 
-Vincent
Apr 18, 2006 | 8:40 am
#24
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston
Programs: UA LT GS/5MM, DL LTDia, HHGold, LTHyattGlob, Marriott LTTitanium, IHG
Posts: 195
I'm mostly a lurker, but I certainly sense a change in the overall attitude here - but not only on the CO postings, but on many of the other forums as wel; maybe it's an underlying frustration produced from other causes. It seems that many FT Frequent Users harbor at least a low level of displeasure with their preferred programs, perhaps due to the difficulties in redemption along with ever new restrictions, changes and "enhancements." As at least one poster adds that things aren't as fun as they used to be - which is certainly right.
I think this underlying malaise tends to make many of us a bit "short" - especially when dealing with questions which we find ignorant, misguided, or inappropriate. That these questions come from relative new or inexperienced users should mitigate our remarks on the forums. Sadly, the search feature isn't always efficient, and the quickest way to basic knowledge may be to repost a query.
I'm a very long time frequent flyer, yet I am always pleased with the new information that I find on FlyerTalk. Nonetheless, even though I find new pearls evey day, there are times when I can't RE-find them when I need them. These forums exist to make our lives easier in dealing with our programs, and should not be an additional source of irritation to users.
I think this underlying malaise tends to make many of us a bit "short" - especially when dealing with questions which we find ignorant, misguided, or inappropriate. That these questions come from relative new or inexperienced users should mitigate our remarks on the forums. Sadly, the search feature isn't always efficient, and the quickest way to basic knowledge may be to repost a query.
I'm a very long time frequent flyer, yet I am always pleased with the new information that I find on FlyerTalk. Nonetheless, even though I find new pearls evey day, there are times when I can't RE-find them when I need them. These forums exist to make our lives easier in dealing with our programs, and should not be an additional source of irritation to users.
Apr 18, 2006 | 3:49 pm
#25
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 319
If two people post the same topic at the exact same time such as the Chautauqua RJ deal, should they both be forced to "do a search?"
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549306
Technically I guess this OP should have been forced to do the search:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549307
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549306
Technically I guess this OP should have been forced to do the search:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549307
Apr 18, 2006 | 4:36 pm
#26
Original Poster
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: EWR (Wayne Township, NJ) and PHX
Programs: CO OnePass Plat and SPG - Plat, Marriott Plat (don't use -it's a comp), AmericaWest CP
Posts: 4,810
Originally Posted by delpreston
If two people post the same topic at the exact same time such as the Chautauqua RJ deal, should they both be forced to "do a search?"
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549306
Technically I guess this OP should have been forced to do the search:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549307
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549306
Technically I guess this OP should have been forced to do the search:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=549307
-Vincent
Apr 18, 2006 | 5:02 pm
#27
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: JZRO
Posts: 9,175
Originally Posted by familyflier
Weirdly enough, I sensed a change in the mood around the time of the "Do."
The forums mood has not been the same since. We need another good debacle! ^
Apr 18, 2006 | 5:37 pm
#28
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NYC and SFO
Programs: UA 1MM (former 1K, Delta Platinum))
Posts: 1,244
There are two structural issues. One is our purpose in being. To make an analogy, the warmest forum I know is Kamado.com, where people conspire to make great barbecue for their friends and loved ones. The foodie opposite extreme is wine tastings, which I've given up; I'm tired of rich lawyers leaning back and rather than creating anything themselves, passively pronouncing "this pleases me, this doesn't please me". Oh wait, that sounds a bit like us! So we're at our best when we're helping each other.
The other structural issue is that all forum software sucks. Ours sucks less, but still... As a programmer, it amazes me how people blame each other endlessly for bad tools, rather than blaming the tools. If search was easier, then it would be easier to say "look at these threads" than "hey bozo, why didn't you search?" I was just at Google last week, I do believe there's some money in search done right.
Like architecture, tiny differences in design can profoundly affect the social dynamics here. Go look at del.icio.us to see a web index based on voting, or go look at wikipedia for a shared reference library that rivals any commercial project. Why can't we have a FAQ that is self-organizing based on all of our votes? Why can't we each categorize what we read, lurker or OCD poster, so e.g. a "newbie needs help" section emerges organically (some people actually enjoy helping with the repetitive questions) and "if you fly 100K a year and have time to read one thread today, read this" area emerges organically to please the regulars who do remember what was written 3 months ago.
Anyhow, I don't have bad memories over the MC debacle. The 5% is saving me a bundle, and meeting the instigator "speedyturtle" at the Do continues to put a smile on my face.
The other structural issue is that all forum software sucks. Ours sucks less, but still... As a programmer, it amazes me how people blame each other endlessly for bad tools, rather than blaming the tools. If search was easier, then it would be easier to say "look at these threads" than "hey bozo, why didn't you search?" I was just at Google last week, I do believe there's some money in search done right.
Like architecture, tiny differences in design can profoundly affect the social dynamics here. Go look at del.icio.us to see a web index based on voting, or go look at wikipedia for a shared reference library that rivals any commercial project. Why can't we have a FAQ that is self-organizing based on all of our votes? Why can't we each categorize what we read, lurker or OCD poster, so e.g. a "newbie needs help" section emerges organically (some people actually enjoy helping with the repetitive questions) and "if you fly 100K a year and have time to read one thread today, read this" area emerges organically to please the regulars who do remember what was written 3 months ago.
Anyhow, I don't have bad memories over the MC debacle. The 5% is saving me a bundle, and meeting the instigator "speedyturtle" at the Do continues to put a smile on my face.
Apr 18, 2006 | 6:30 pm
#29
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: EWR-N.Haledon NJ
Programs: CO Platinum
Posts: 1,136
Originally Posted by Syzygies
The other structural issue is that all forum software sucks. Ours sucks less, but still... As a programmer, it amazes me how people blame each other endlessly for bad tools, rather than blaming the tools. If search was easier, then it would be easier to say "look at these threads" than "hey bozo, why didn't you search?" I was just at Google last week, I do believe there's some money in search done right.
Anyhow, I don't have bad memories over the MC debacle. The 5% is saving me a bundle, and meeting the instigator "speedyturtle" at the Do continues to put a smile on my face.
Anyhow, I don't have bad memories over the MC debacle. The 5% is saving me a bundle, and meeting the instigator "speedyturtle" at the Do continues to put a smile on my face.
I got a buzz from meeting SpeedyTurtle....sort of like meeting Abbie Hoffman
YES THE FORUM HAS CHANGED
Apr 18, 2006 | 6:46 pm
#30
Original Poster
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: EWR (Wayne Township, NJ) and PHX
Programs: CO OnePass Plat and SPG - Plat, Marriott Plat (don't use -it's a comp), AmericaWest CP
Posts: 4,810
Originally Posted by Russell745
YES THE FORUM HAS CHANGED
lol More importantly has it changed for the better or worse...
-Vincent