I sure would like to know when this fix is going to me implemented. Plat window passed last night and my flights are A9 F0 & A8 F0. I went and looked and there are literally (9) & (8) FC seats available respectively.

I'd rather not have to arrive at the airport 3hrs early to get my seats Here's to hoping that they kick some seats open at the Gold window...

[This message has been edited by EWR-COflyer (edited 02-26-2002).]

Although, the true money maker is British Airways, which overbooks the hell out of its first class cabin (at $5,600 a piece) on flights that preceed the rarely filled Concorde.

IM4Travel: i sent a letter so, accordingly, my punctuation was pristine. if you understood electronic communication you might realize that my writing style is consistent with common practice.

i would relish the opportunity to compare writing styles with you. relish it.

How about I watched my IAH-EWR tomorrow stick at F0 and watch as FC seats dropped from 9 to 7 to 3 to ???? where I know there are two Plats still in coach. Maybe they are being bought, maybe not. It is still very aggravating.

- HobokenFlyer

In all honesty couldn't those be Gold/Plat Y-fare purchases, then pulling the FC seat from the A bucket?

Doesn't seem that unreasonable for that route... I'm in the same boat next week with trips to ATL & IAH. F0 all the way, but I'm 100% sure that some Gold/Plats will purchase Y-fare EWR/ATL seats... I think that's why they hold 'em in A.

Personally since I buy the lowest fare possible, I don't like it, but it does make sense for high volume corporate/Y-fare routes.

You know, for every one of "us" that buys the low-fare tix waiting for EUA there's a guy buying Y-fare and *****ing that EUA gave up the seats that he was counting on... I'd be willing to bet that CO's corporate customers harped on them about availability of last minute FC seats from Y-Fare... you can bet your a$$ that if I was paying $1,200+ from IAH/EWR and didn't get a FC seat I'd be going ballistic.

I'm still confused how they can advertise the 5, 3, and 1 day windows when yield management effectively reduces them all to "3 hours".... if they're doing this across the board, they should remove that from the promotional materials -- it's very misleading.

the same way they can advertize that FF rewards actually exist (subject to capacity controls).

That's where the whole loyalty marketing scenario breaks down.

If I were to pay $1200+ on a flight with no notice, you'd bet I wouldn't give a rats a** who I was flying with. Give me the best seat available on the most direct route at the best time. You'd bet that almost any corp travel group or agent worth their sort can get the upgrade from a full fare Y ticket, forget status.

The folks that loyalty marketing schemes are supposed to court are the folks planning to move their business to one airline or another - and the key word here is planning. These are the people who consciously decide to fly one airline or another. And from all I have seen, Co has done a terrific job of alienating them for quite a while.


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-26-2002).]

If they release all seats in to F class at t-3.5 hours, and run EUA for the last time at t-3 hours....doesn't this mean that during t-3hr49 min and t-3hrs 1 min...Golds/Silvers could still get upgrades ahead of Plats at the ATO? Or are they also changing ATO procedures as well?

I think you mean "between 3 hours and 29 min and 3 hours and 1 min." And I think the answer has to be "yes" if the at-the-gate order is not observed.

The free for all is only supposed to be within 2 hours of departure.

But doesn't this somewhat reinforce what I'm saying? CO is a business and wants the opportunity to book high-rev full-Y fares. By leaving those seats in A, it allows the your travel agent to say, "well if you fly on CO I can get you in FC." Rather than say "hmmm... NYC to LAX, let's see, CO has no FC seats left at all, but if you fly on UA I can get you a coach seat and then upgrade it to FC."

I think there is truth in what I'm saying...

Although, I do think it is unreasonable to horde 16 seats on a 757 in A... there should be some balance...

I did a lousy job of explaining what I meant before.

Every major airline runs a marketing group for three reasons. 1) To attract people to flying who weren't necessarily planning to. 2) To retain loyal and high paying customers. 3) To attract new loyal and high paying customers.


If I'm paying full fare coach, I don't care how much of a mileage bonus I'm getting on the flight...odds are I'm paying full fare when I take my family on our vacation anyway. I care if the flight is clean, on-time, a non-stop. I don't book my own travel, my junior assistants do that. I find out where to go at the airport after I look at the ticket or get told on the way to the airport. Your "loyalty marketing" efforts are wasted on me. So if CO were to fire the whole marketing department (cool idea!), odds are they'd get exactly the same number of full fare coach passengers they do now, simply by virtue of the routes they fly.

So, who do they market to? The folks like us who plan their travel in advance. People that are able to afford to fly repeatedly for business or pleasure, and to whom mileage bonuses, upgrades, clubs and other perks actually mean something. These folks - that CO can actually convince to fly them (or convince to stay with them) through marketing - are running away in droves. They've been screwed or lied to once too often from down Houston way.

Is is very stupid practices? Yup. Have they lost all sight of the clues? Yup. Are their Egos (up to and includiing the 777 engine sized one of Gordo the liar) so big they're going to implode? Yup.

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-26-2002).]

Frankly, I think you're way off base here. I've been working on Wall Street for the past six years, and all my business travel has been full fare, and none of my personal travel has been. I don't see how you can claim "odds are I'm paying full fare when I take my family on our vacation anyway." That makes no sense.

And, yes, while some people don't care what airline they fly as long as the flight time is convenient, etc., there are plenty of mileage whores out there who do. I know I've certainly diverted as much of my full fare business as possible to CO over the past few years. Why? So I can retain my elite status. When do I most benefit from my elite status? Probably when flying on full Y fares, when I can confirm an upgrade at ticketing (I usually use miles to upgrade for personal trips -- don't want to gamble with the EUA).

When one is flying, say, NYC to ORD/SFO/LAX/LON or other big business centers, there's no shortage of convenient flight times on multiple carriers. Choice comes down to 1) corporate travel policy and 2) personal preference. Loyalty programs have a lot to do with #2.

So, maybe CO is alienating the leisure flyers. But unless I'm in a small minority, they have every reason to focus their efforts on their most profitable travelers.
As for the leisure travelers, I wonder if you did a survey asking them to rank the factors they consider when choosing an airline, where would Loyalty Program fall? Probably below price and convenience, but just my guess.

Agreed. But I'm going to throw in some interesting data on this one.. Mr Fish has recently begun flying EWR-ATL a few times a week, and I have made an curious discovery (this may be old news, but it's new to me).. Mr Fish IS one of those last minute business flyers; he books 1-3 days in advance (and often day of travel). These are the fares available for midweek travel EWR-ATL with return on same day (8am departure/5pm return):

3 day adv.purch-B fare-non-ref,$100change$385
NO adv. - K fare - non-ref,$100 change $491
NO adv. - Y8 fare - fully refundable $631
(None of these fares have a time or min stay restriction...)

Now, his corp travel will only allow lowest fare (isn't this typical policy??? We are lucky that they allow CO at all on some of their overpriced routes). Booking a day in advance means it is unlikely that he will cancel, but if it happens, the company will eat the $100 change fee and re-use the ticket (for less than the original Y fare). If he misses his return (which he often does) he has no problem standing by for later (or even earlier) flight. So who is actually PURCHASING these Y fares, when you can book same flight, at the same time, in K for less $$? I looked at tomorrows morning/evening non-stops and they are all wide open EXCEPT in A/D/F.. Obviously, someone is paying that Y (or even A) fare (or they have released all to EUA), but who and why? This pricing is great for corp travel (lower $$$) but I just find it odd! On this fairly short flt, Mr Fish has little complaint sitting in back. As for longer flts....

Looking at CO EWR-LAX, same day travel, you MUST book a Y fare no matter how far out you book (no Sat nt stay), so obviously, this is where the A/F seats go.. This explains the dismal F chances for this flight on either EUA OR last-minute purchase.. So, if you need to go to LAX tomorrow, you can pay about the same price on numerous airlines, and possibly get to A/F IF available. So why would you choose CO when no A/F is available over another airline with a confirmed F seat? LOYALTY! Now here comes the kicker!

In this flying family, Mr Fish's business travel causes hardship, AND supplies lot of perks.. The perks are what he gets for missing so many birthdays (lol). So, he chooses his BUSINESS travel partner not only for the perks while flying on business, but ALSO the use of those perks when flying leisure (and NEVER on full fare leisure).. This includes everything from FC checkin to using earned mileage (using miles for upgrades is the biggie for us). EUA is not a big issue for US (I know it is for others who secure EUA, and I truly do appreciate that!). So, if his business butt is going to be in a Y seat on CO or AA or UA, at least he has the consolation of using the miles at a later time.. His choices going EWR-LAX tomorrow? Likely Y on CO, with earned priveleges and miles that are getting effectively difficult to redeem. OR Y (possibly upgraded to F or at least a better Y seat) on another carrier, with the possibility of being able to use those miles more easily for future leisure travel. By alienating THIS leisure traveler, CO has alientated a profitable business traveler!! I am certainly not saying that any airline program is perfect, that is FAR from true. CO has had the edge for a long time, but they are slipping (in MY opinion only). If EUA works for you, and your most important need is sitting in F for all the short hauls, then you have every right to be ecstatic with CO. If you are flying CO in the hopes of someday being able to use your miles for leisure, you will be a little disappointed (unless things improve). All those bonuses were fantastic, until we tried to redeem them.. I am sticking, at least partially, with CO because I HOPE they will make a little comeback.. I feel somewhat attached to them after all these years.. As far as keeping the other Fishs' Gold status, that's 3 more leisure travelers they have alienated! We will remain Gold for at least one more year (TY Amex Centurion - $1500 for 2, much less than what we spent to earn Gold each year). And we shall see where this is leading...