I am a CO plat 90K plus EQM's this year. I have always flown mostly CO but taken advantage of the NW (espeically before 50% EQM's) partnership. This holiday season took NW from DCA to SEA with my wife and 4 year old daughter. Couldn't get any companion updgrades on the way out but yesterday coming home snagged one from SEA to DTW. The GA was great and even got them together. So I sent Ms. Otralot and Miss Otralot to the front to the bus.

Bad fog in SEA meant a late departure and a quick connection in DTW so we rushed to the gate and I had forgotten that I had requested a companion updgrade for that segment as well. Boarding was underway when we arrived so we just got online. When we got to the gate and gave our boarding passes the GA said wait I have an updgrade for you..Actually I upgraded all of you (that's right two companion upgrades) and got you two seats together but couldn't get you all in a row. So I apologize for that but I tried.

I was flabbergasted and had there not been a plane load of people behind me in line I would have been on my knees in thanks!!! I am not sure this would ever happen on CO and this for me is the straw that broke the camel's back (along with eqm's, smaller FC, non-existent eua runs...). This is real customer service above and beyond.

So after nearly 20 years as a loyal CO flyer its bye, bye CO. I will be back every once in awhile as NW Plat....

While NW has some VERY good customer service agents (you got one!), be aware that they also have some of the worst agents as well. Some have been known to call airport police if you object in the least to what they are doing (usually doing something negative).

Including one well-known agent in DTW who, according to testimony at the NW board, has been known to berate customers so viciously she has brought even some veteran frequent flyers to tears. However, I will say that my experience with NW DTW agents has been more positive than my experience with CO EWR staff - but it's a wash comparing the CO IAH folks with the NW DTW agents.

Bottom line...every airline has it's own collection of fantastic people who really make your day every time you see them, and every airline has its share of employees who make your blood run cold.

Another difference is at CO you wouldn't stand on line to board you have Elite Access. How about those NW seats? Comfy huh? More like sitting in the bleachers.

I would say that yes this would happen on CO especially if there weren't any other elite pax, all the people you were traveling with were on the same ITN, and/or they oversold in Y.

NW FC seats are not bad...pretty comfy...and certainly much comfier than any coach seat on CO, NW, DL or any other carrier.

ITN's were split for orginal upgrades and there were seats in Y.

I would agree that NW seats are probably not quite as good as CO and that goes for food as well. I am not going to be loyal in the hopes of a cookie or or a sundae or a leather seat. But I have been very impressed with NW service in flight and on the ground. Their club staff easily matches CO and is better in many cases.

FC seats are only better if you actually have one. As I said in my OP my decision is cumulative based on many factors. This incident just proved to me it wouldn't be a mistake.

I think be reducing FC availability, CO is actually hoping that people like me--non Y fare paying business traveler actually leaves.

Yes, CO is testing the relatively new business theory that not every customer is a good customer to have.

As a CO Plat I got a companion upgrade for my young son EWR-SEA once... a huge moment. Otherwise I never got one companion upgrade, let alone two. NW has courtesy-upgraded flying companions of mine from time to time with a smile, even in years when I wasn't Gold or Plat.

i got two companions up'd with ease on the monday after xmas phx-iah.

full flight, but not oversold. i did however work a little scam where as i asked two different agents to upgrade the companions seperately. they had no problem with it.

It does happen on CO. When I was a lowly Silver they upgraded me the wife and a child. Later in life when I was a Gold CO upgraded me, the wife and two kids (all upgrades happened by the PC as I've always been a paid member). Even later in life as Plat and the wife and 3 kids are Silver we're well taken care of but that really doesn't count. From what I'm told it goes down the line as far as levels, if there's still room CO offers it to family of elite members flying together. Just that this situation doesn't happen often for any airline and probably helped that I am a PC member.

Sorry to hear you're switching, I've had good and bad flights on NW like any other airline. I'm not sure I'd jump ship after a good experience on another airline no matter how upset I was at CO and I'd wait out the EQM and other issues to see if there are changes or not.

Could be, but it's the same biz theory that some Asian and European airlines have used for a long time. BA comes to mind right away, they couldn't care less about most of the fliers on their airline.

It's certainly a workable theory for some...but not in an industry involved in such cutthroat competition and thin (and thinning) margins. It might work at those Asian airlines and BA where full service competition is very limited, but pushing that theory into practice over here would not go well - there is too much competition and the market is primarily driven by price without much understanding of 'product or brand differences'.

If you asked 100 travelers who fly more than twice per year, but less than 5 times, I bet 80+ of them would be unable to discuss the actual product differences between the carriers they fly, and comment they make their choice only on the basis of price/time or loyalty program preference.

Air carriers have boxed themselves into a hole by cutting cost from their product and pushing the concept of "commoditization" on the market - in effect saying, "we're all the same...a seat is a seat is a seat....this is just transportation". This type of message just reinforces people's willingness to use price/time as the primary driver for the purchase decision rather than have a clear understanding that "if I fly airline A, I get the following..., and I fly airline B, I get the following...so I choose airline B even though they cost an extra $20 and my layover is 45 minutes longer".

In a market like this, airlines need to realize they need all their repeat customers, not just some of them.

British Airways in particular has decided that economy passengers don't matter -- you're not even allowed to join the BA FF program unless you buy a full-fare (Y class or better) ticket, which simply formalizes classist cultural prejudices that existed at BA for years. I was one of the many who complained and criticized when BA narrowed its FF program two years afo to exclude all but frequent premium-fare fliers, but I have to admit, they're making money and CO (AA, DL, UA, etc...) are not.

The difference is the marketplace, I agree. Even in Europe BA's idea of a heavy-frequency city pair is, like, four trips a day. In the US airlines are more like public utilities/bus lines, with heavy competition.

We are getting slightly off topic, but I've been thinking about the comparative strategies between CO and NW lately. CO seems to be moving upscale, focusing on high-margin customers, high-margin domestic routes and massive international expansion. You can see this with the reduction in product quality on certain "commodity" domestic routes (i.e. removal of FC seats), the downgrading from mainline birds to COEX RJs on many routes to/from even larger cities, and the expansion of international service from the hubs. CO is essentially trying to make itself into something closer to the big Asian/European model (BA, AF, JP, CX, SQ) where the focus is on high-margin international routes with domestic routes mainly to feed the hubs.

NW, on the other hand, has a respectable international route network in Asia already with their NRT hub, but relies more heavily on codeshare partners to service other international destinations. NW seems to be putting more focus into the domestic market and the middle of the price scale. They're expanding the "focus city" concept with nonstops out of IND, MKE, and GRR that offer choices to business travellers that avoid connections. These routes can be substantially more profitable if done correctly. I could see this idea expanded to MCI and possibly PIT in the future (but that's just my own speculation based on observing NW's recent strategic moves).

So while CO becomes the U.S. version of BA, NW carves its niche out by focusing on mid-market business between the Missouri River and the Appalachians, while maintaining strength in the Pacific Northwest and Japan. As these two airlines diverge in their strategies, I think pax stand to benefit with more choices of convenient schedules and service levels appropriate to the prices paid.

First of all, otralot we are kind of getting OT your OP but I do think that this direction is important to your decision because the direction the carriers are going will affect your (and many of our) decisions on which carrier to be loyal to. I'm going to post here because I do enjoy the posts by Bocastephen, BearX220, and Boofer. If one of the more senior members decides to start a new thread that's great, we might have an unofficial lurker out there, or someone can bring them up to Larry at the meeting cigarman is trying for.

I don't disagree with your comments and it probably is my personal feelings only; however I wish CO or some airline would worry less about the LCC and more about the loyal pax. Could this theory work in America, I think it could but I'm not risking billions of dollars nor do I own the airlines. Could it work for all legacy carriers, absolutely not. Could it work for one, I have to say yes. I think the US Carriers have lost and are losing people to European / Asian Carriers when going International and the US carriers are trying to expand their international biz. As the domestic market is so tough, many are expanding international, but they are trying to mix too much domestic and international. I mean they are trying to compete in price at home and expand international on the same business model / plan and it just isn't a good idea. How to come up with a good plan / model / theory that is split or two pronged, that's not my area of knowledge so I'm not sure such a plan would be possible, I can only hope.

The Legacy Carriers got themself into the problem of "commoditization", but CO has stuck to serving meals at meal time, has tried to keep up with some services that the other airlines are cutting out (and I like the elite baggage pick up's and other more recent changes). Do I have hopes that CO will keep service as a priority, I sure do. Larry is a numbers guy, but a numbers guy with a thought about how we can do things cheaper while keeping the same service or getting better service to our customers. It seems all legacy carriers are getting younger more vibrant leaders, and I'M HOPING that Larry not only sticks with CO's Service First, but expands on it to the loyal fliers. There's a lot he could do like letting Plat or Plat/Gold members have their own web site to book for partner airlines as well as CO, but there's too many improvements CO could do to go into here. No one carrier is perfect, it's what works for you.

Yeah, BA is kind of tough aren't they, pretty much telling you to go pi$$ on your self, but man their service is kind of nice, and they couldn't care and their FF members couldn't care if BA told someone to go pi$$ themself. I didn't want to get into it but these other airlines are making money. There is a difference between the marketplace, but look at the US market, there's gotta be more flights and cities for US carriers then foreign carriers. Is there no way that one US carrier can not try to provide a high level of service to international and the major US runs? Or the biggest runs for their hub's? Can we not let the COExpress take out first class seats and try to compete with the LCC while keeping a higher level of service in some runs? These Asian and European airlines have some of the most loyal fliers in the world and they are making money, so something has be right about what they are doing. Again, I'm not saying every legacy could do this, but I don't like how many of them are going down hill to fight the LCC and just saying pi$$ on our loyal fliers. Hopefully one US carrier will adopt a part of the foreign carriers biz model into their plans for the future.

I'm thinking the same as you, with the exception that NW even through it has NRT, CO is still the largest carrier into Japan. NW seems (to me) to be using NRT as a transit point into other Asian cities it serves that CO does not. Plus NW needed a hub in Asia as they had nothing whereas CO has Guam. Often I'm into Japan on CO then out on NW. The lack of expansion beyond or besides Japan in Asia is holding CO back. It's really hard to get beyond HongKong or Japan on CO and CO is really missing out on a large piece of the puzzle. They've had Japan for a long time, and are pushing Europe right now, unfortuantely others are creeping into Japan and providing more flights to other Asian cities then CO does which could harm CO if they don't re-evaluate Asia.


During these times we're going to see a shake out of the carriers. I say two Legacy Carriers will not operate anymore. Either fold or merge, but I think we're going to have two less (I think you'll all agree on atleast 1 will no longer operate). And the remaining will have to change the way they operate. If one folds shortly (shorly in airline terms) then the remaining fight out the battles we'll probably end up losing another unless they start to seperate and distinguish themselves in some way. Which way they go I have no idea yet but I'm keeping my loyalty in CO and hope Larry comes through for me. What I do like is that CO and NW are partner airlines. I'm hoping they each create a strategy that can benefit each other and not fight it out head to head. A nice little alliance that compliments each other in different areas.

Either way otralot, I don't think you could go wrong with CO or NW (or I'll say you could do a lot worse IMHO). NW Plat will get you service in CO just like CO Plat will get you service in NW right now. I don't think you are alone in this, depending on how things shake out in 2005 / 2006 we might have a lot of NW switch to CO and vice versa depending on the FF changes and the direction the airlines are appear to be taking, and heck you could be back to CO.