Those in my inner circle tell me I'm very good at stating the obvious. Since I have no travel advice to dispense, I'll just state the obvious (and ask a few questions while I'm at it)...

1. This is a community. As with any community, physical or virtual, there are desirables and undesirables. Can you ban a jerk at work? Can you walk away from rude passenger on your flight? Do you spend hours trying to turn a straight man gay (or vice versa)? What is it about the virtual world that makes people believe these things are possible, yet they know better in the real world? Why would a cyber world be more peaceful than the real world if both are made up of the same people?

2. Some people thrive on attention. For the really desperate, even notoriety is better than being on the sideline. They join a community and right away want to be known as an authority, to be the elder statesman. To gain such status for the FT community, they accumulate a high post count, dispense propaganda-laden advice, associate with other members of authority to use as reference, and make select key appearances. Once the foundation is established, they attack those with different beliefs, citing the credentials established, and fight tooth and nail to stay in that authoritative position. We see this in the political world, we see this in the work place, and we see this in the virtual world. What makes people think they can talk sense in the virtual world, while ignoring those in the real world with the "what are you gonna do?" shrug?

3. We are so politically correct these days that the middle ground has all but disappeared. Everyone is so afraid to say the wrong thing that silence replaces everything else between the polarized ends. Then one day, when everything boils over, you take one side or the other, or just get fed up and leave. Then everyone asks, "why can't we all get along?" We can learn a lot from a gate agent - they have to decide who gets upgraded and who doesn't, because obviously everyone cannot be included.

4. The price of freedom is high. We continue to fight for the right to speak so freely ourselves, yet we keep asking to control what others can or cannot say. I served in the US Air Force so you have the freedom to burn the American flag. Why do we blame to authorities when someone burns a flag in cyberworld, but allow them to do it in the real world? What makes you think that control you asked for will not moderate what you have to say in the future? How will you feel then?

5. Communication is difficult. Communications among family members, spouse, co-workers, and friends are never without misunderstandings and frustration. Communications across national boundries and cultural differences are that much more difficult. Take away non-verbal actions and restrict communications to the written word, and we're lucky to get a point across unmolested. Add to all this the probability you're audience has a stubborn mind, and the chance of making a simple point in cyberspace becomes a monumental task. What makes you think you will win/convince/convert/silence someone online, especially if that person comes from (2) above?

I don't usually say much because I don't have much useful to say. Those who know me know that when I do say something it comes from the heart. I hope what I've written here is a little more useful than wasted bandwidth.

Thanks!

Very well stated!

------------------
MRKEY

For those who've decided to "take their toys and go home" ... don't let the door hit on the way out. I'm not going to plead for you to stay, because I find your behavior even more reprehensible. Just go.

Thanks, Peter.

Indurain, as a parent of 2 wonderful kids, these are some of the many issues that I have been trying to teach my kids to deal with. A well written post!

First, let me say that I do not disagree with your "bottom line" point (although we could have a discussion on paragraph 4 - freedom to speak does not mean freedom from civility), but let me suggest that jerks need not be accepted just because they are in a "community".

Can you deal with a jerk at work? Durned tootin'! Talk to the manager or boss, and if he/she doesn't straighten out the workplace, you may have an action for constructive discharge.

Can you walk away from a rude passenger on your flight? If he's simply rude, and not a pest, you can ignore him; if he is disruptive (and someone who rants at other passengers, calling them names, who claims to be member of a profession when he is not, and who generally disrupts an otherwise peaceful and placid flight would easily be so characterized) he would normally be "counseled" by the authority figure to mend his ways or face consequences. If he did it repeatedly, many if not most airlines would ban him for life.

Shakers (or was it Amish?) had what they called "shunning". When the community was inflicted with a disruptive influence who refused to mend his ways, they could and did simply refuse to acknowledge his existence. He was not spoken to, and if he spoke no one responded. He was not invited anywhere and if he showed up nonetheless, he was ignored. By all reports, it worked well - the person shunned either mended his ways and brought his behavior into acceptable bounds, or he finally left the community in peace.

Perhaps, if the authority figures refuse to respond to disruptive behavior, the passive solution is the way to go. The problem is - how does the community get the word to new members? With the Amish/Shakers/whoever, children were taught, and newcomers advised that the particular individual was being shunned by the community. Oh well, I'm sure we can figure out a way if we think about it.

Oh, and EPS, when one has tried without success to change an irritation, and finds he cannot succeed, and if the irritation has ruined what was otherwise a pleasure for him, how does it make sense (absent masochism) for him to continue to put up with the irritation?

(Edited to correct garbleed spelling/syntax.)

[This message has been edited by Counsellor (edited 03-01-2001).]

Perhaps we have different agendas ... you're out to change someone. I learned a long time ago that trying to change someone who doesn't want to be changed is a sure ticket to misery. Furthermore, you need to examine your intentions: if you're doing so for your benefit, I'll argue that's selfish. If you think you're doing it for his benefit, that's paternalistic. I get a strong sense that several people here aren't seeking to make things better, but are just looking for any excuse to start a fight. That's deplorable.

That said, there's a large gray area when it comes to "acceptable" behavior. FlyerTalk would be a boring place if everyone thought and acted alike. There has to be room for disagreement; there should be an opportunity to discuss opposing--even unpopular--views, without fear of reprisals. Also, it helps to have a few eccentrics to add "color" to the community.

It's unrealistic to expect everyone here to be happy all the time. What's happening is a natural process; new faces will appear, old ones will move on. Some will vanish as quickly as they came, while others will integrate themselves into the community. There will be skirmishes from time to time, and no doubt a few bruises will result. Some people won't speak for a long time. And you know what? That's OK, because that's the way it's supposed to be.

What you can't do is look back upon "the way it was" and yearn for "the good old days." What you can do is work for a better future. And that future starts right here, right now. What are you waiting for?


[This message has been edited by EPS (edited 03-02-2001).]

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar, more alliterative term: disfellowshiped. Try it out next time a Witness rings your doorbell.

Of course it's selfish. Self-interest is a justifiable basis for action. Counsellor's point about affecting change and behaviors on these boards seems to be lost on you, EPS. The continued integrity of Flyertalker is important to Counsellor, as it is to me and probably you. How is trying to maintain decorum and civility picking a fight? That's what you seem to be stating at the end of your first paragraph in the last post. No offense but I don't think it works, logically-speaking.

essxjay: I'm all for decorum and civility. Well, most of the time, anyway. I don't count myself among the ones launching a barrage of personal attacks.

I think there have been several cases where some members have taken offense at something ozstamps posted, where I honestly believe no provocation was intended. Much of this reflects cultural differences. But until I meet Mr. Stephens in person, I'm hesitant to pass judgment. I'd be pretty upset at the way you pick on newself if my only view were through this board.

Where's the crisis? Over time, every poster comes to develop a reputation. I can accept that some people will come off as jerks. Does that mean I have to follow their example? No. Will I try to place everything I read here in context? Yes.

As for the continued integrity of FlyerTalk, I'm a lot more concerned with changes to the enabling software and the organizational framework. Then, FlyerTalk "as we know it" will truly be a thing of the past.

Counsellor, I'm not saying we should accept a jerk or bully just because they are part of the community. What I'm saying is that, since they crave attention and thrive on community unrest, why give that to them? We've creating a situation that gives them just what they need, and we end up frustrated and good people leave disheartened.

Yes we can restore order when authority cracks down. The problem is, they won't do it. How much longer do we repeatedly bang our heads on the wall until we realize that it hurts for nothing?

We're left with but a few choices, one being a frustrated departure, effectively leaving those of us left behind to fight the fight with even less support. This will just create an infinite catch-22, well, just until this board trickles down to nothing.

The other choice (not a bad one IMHO) is "shunning" as you mentioned. If it is done, his authority is gone. He can no longer say "I rubbed elbows with XX and YY at the ZZ Do Quattro" and "I don't know why all this hostility, everything was fine when AA and I had tea at LAX last week." The perceived acceptance by everyone based on his physical attendance of functions would be gone. If we ignore his threads, he's left with "the silence is deafening" posts repeatedly over time. How much patience would anyone have posting that same thing over and over without reply? How fast would someone (even for a newbie) get tired of a broken record? Anything left of the flamer would simply burn itself out. Its happened before!

Finally, new members deserve more credit, at least the ones that are not made up. When I first began reading it didn't take long to figure out who's who and get an idea of the personnas here, and I'm only of average intellligence.

Anyway, this may already be an excercise in futility. The departure domino has been set in motion, and there may not be much left worth fighting for anyway.

I agree with you. If only we could ignore it. It infests threads and hijacks them. It wastes bandwidth with self-congratulatory recursive postings (and cross-postings, and cross-cross-postings).

The problem has become, in part, the increasingly low signal-to-noise ratio. We have to have a way to simply filter out the noise.

I've always believed in the motto Don't feed the trolls. Sometimes, however, that's not enough - particularly when the trolls seize on the lack of response and term it "support".

LEAVING ... is not the way to "filter out the noise".

I FULLY agree with INDURAIN. I myself had his words in my mind for many days ... in German that was. Wasn't able to express it in English the right way.

I can hardly understand, why some obviously respected and loved by the vast majority of these boards, would leave b/c of one or a few others who try to "disturb" this community.

It's so FEW who participate in flame wars and attack others .... ?!

BTW Did it come to someone's mind that a certain poster just may be SICK ?

So many ideas!

I like the idea of "shunning" to shut someone off. I also agree completely with Bernie's post above. I think we all want the same thing.

Leaving is NOT the answer. I really do not like that kind of defeatist attitude.

For the record, ozstamps has done nothing to me personally. I subscribe to the "shunning" idea for anyone deserving of such action. Have I been angered or disgusted by some posters? Yes, of course. When that happens, I try very hard to just let it go. I find it relatively easy to ignore future posts by that person.

-RKG

Do you people realise how much time and energy you are expending by perpetuating this situation, dwelling on it? Informative posts which could have been made on sensible threads by you but were not, because you were siderailed by an urge to read and contribute to the current invective that is being posted in abundance within all the dominant threads.

I've just spent five hours catching up and following the links to what I concur is the fodder for a soap opera. All of what I've read is a collection of very volitile emotions - act and react - shoot or be shot and a bitter contest of one-up-manship. Nothing, in all of these threads, nothing, has been shared about flying and the initial passion that originally lured us to this board or enticed us to participate.

If it will help you regain you equalibrium, jackhammer the yellow brick road - create a detour away from Oz - mentally blast it or him to **** but leave it off the board - explore new worlds and go where no man (or at least a few individuals you don't care to be exposed to) have gone before.

Don't give up. Alter your stategy instead. Throwing in the towel demeans you; it admits defeat. You would rather deprive yourself of a pastime you have enjoyed for years, sacrifice the present and future bonds you have and could make, because of an incendiary device in our midst. Don't compromised the characteristics of your nature that have upheld for so long, endeared you to many; here and in your personal lives. Hold fast to your honesty and integrity; expound on your knowledge and experience and let the wannabes continue to envy you as they vividly do in their responses.

All of you that have expressed the intention of leaving this board and withdrawing your support from the many that value you, as opposed to the few that revile you, please reconsider. If you can't, I truly wish you well and hope that someday, we can meet again under more favourable circumstances.