Thoughts of an old-timer.....
Mar 4, 2000, 3:37 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
Thoughts of an old-timer.....
Oh dear, oh dear we are getting in a pickle aren't we.
There seems to be much debate about this BB at the moment and I thought I would share my observations with you...
When I first came across this Board in 1998 I thought it was fantastic. A hard-core of people shared experiences and the board was largely focused on FF program related issues.
Mid-way through last year, I changed jobs and drifted away from the board. When my life had calmed down a little I came back to FylerTalk thinking things would be largey the same. They weren't!
Rudi, Premex etc. were still around, but (no offence guys) they didn't seem as prolific as they once had. But apart from that the board had changed in other ways...
The focus had gone. This was no longer a forum about FF programs but a general travel forum, which is fine but general travel is an immotive and diverse subject and when you start talking general travel you risk getting awash with comment which is largely irrelevant to the majority.
In other words there is so much information around you can't find what you want or what interests you.
That is what I think has changed here. Maybe that is what people want, but it isn't what I used to liek about Flyertalk.
Now I am going to attribute responsibility for this change on someone (not blame because this may have been waht people want)... and the person is... Randy.
Randy has tried to make this forum all things to all men.
I think things got out of control during the time of PiP. I think Randy jumped on this "community" band-wagon and that was it the focus was gone. If you are talking community you are allowing people to talk about things which effect the community, but I once thought this Forum was not for that, but as I have said things have changed.
Another thing which I think is happening now which is very ugly is that people are attaching themselves to this forum and using it as a way of beating the travel industry with their Customer Service Complaints. Personally I don't like the practice of publishing letters to/from airlines/hotels etc. on this forum WHAT VALUE DOES IT ADD to the reader??
In a nutshell, this forum used to ADD VALUE by providing information - that seems to be a minor part of it's role now.
That's fine. But some of the people I consider the key-speakers have drifted away (when was the last time Baobab posted?) and the reason being is this forum has become to ambitious and has forgotten its reason for being here.
If you don't believe me, take a wonder through the posts and see how many actually give you some information which enables you to earn extra miles etc... This forum has drifted so much that there are 'orphan' web-sites which actually tell us what we used to seek here.
My view is if you want to get this board back to the great forum it once was, take the community stuff off-line (go so that somewhere else). Delete the threads such as OMNI; Community; Buzz etc.
Randy: Read your description of what this board is for and make the necessary changes so it gets back there.
I don't want to tell you how to do your job, but if things carry on as they are, the travel industry will start to think of this forum as a joke/pain and that will tarnish your Freddies and everything else you have worked so hard for.
If I was in Customer Service for an airline, I think I would be wary of anyone who allowed a forum which publicised Customer Service issues.
I mean this in as constructive a way as possible.
Nick
There seems to be much debate about this BB at the moment and I thought I would share my observations with you...
When I first came across this Board in 1998 I thought it was fantastic. A hard-core of people shared experiences and the board was largely focused on FF program related issues.
Mid-way through last year, I changed jobs and drifted away from the board. When my life had calmed down a little I came back to FylerTalk thinking things would be largey the same. They weren't!
Rudi, Premex etc. were still around, but (no offence guys) they didn't seem as prolific as they once had. But apart from that the board had changed in other ways...
The focus had gone. This was no longer a forum about FF programs but a general travel forum, which is fine but general travel is an immotive and diverse subject and when you start talking general travel you risk getting awash with comment which is largely irrelevant to the majority.
In other words there is so much information around you can't find what you want or what interests you.
That is what I think has changed here. Maybe that is what people want, but it isn't what I used to liek about Flyertalk.
Now I am going to attribute responsibility for this change on someone (not blame because this may have been waht people want)... and the person is... Randy.
Randy has tried to make this forum all things to all men.
I think things got out of control during the time of PiP. I think Randy jumped on this "community" band-wagon and that was it the focus was gone. If you are talking community you are allowing people to talk about things which effect the community, but I once thought this Forum was not for that, but as I have said things have changed.
Another thing which I think is happening now which is very ugly is that people are attaching themselves to this forum and using it as a way of beating the travel industry with their Customer Service Complaints. Personally I don't like the practice of publishing letters to/from airlines/hotels etc. on this forum WHAT VALUE DOES IT ADD to the reader??
In a nutshell, this forum used to ADD VALUE by providing information - that seems to be a minor part of it's role now.
That's fine. But some of the people I consider the key-speakers have drifted away (when was the last time Baobab posted?) and the reason being is this forum has become to ambitious and has forgotten its reason for being here.
If you don't believe me, take a wonder through the posts and see how many actually give you some information which enables you to earn extra miles etc... This forum has drifted so much that there are 'orphan' web-sites which actually tell us what we used to seek here.
My view is if you want to get this board back to the great forum it once was, take the community stuff off-line (go so that somewhere else). Delete the threads such as OMNI; Community; Buzz etc.
Randy: Read your description of what this board is for and make the necessary changes so it gets back there.
I don't want to tell you how to do your job, but if things carry on as they are, the travel industry will start to think of this forum as a joke/pain and that will tarnish your Freddies and everything else you have worked so hard for.
If I was in Customer Service for an airline, I think I would be wary of anyone who allowed a forum which publicised Customer Service issues.
I mean this in as constructive a way as possible.
Nick
Mar 4, 2000, 9:09 am
#2
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 6,932
Well, I find the specific FF forums (United and Starwood for me) to be excellent places focused on breaking information about how to earn miles, etc. As for the community forums, how hard is it not to read them if you're not interested? I tend to skim through Omni and Buzz, read United and Starwood religiously, and participate in the community threads that interest me. This is one of the best places on the Internet I've ever found and I've been on the Internet since 1977. In 1979 I started one of the first non-work-related Internet mailing lists, SF-LOVERS, much to the chagrin of the system operators who had to deal with the overload. Similar comments were made then about ruining the Internet, etc. I appreciate the freedom of this medium, but the price of such freedom is eternal vigilance. Leaving a community, in my book, is a last resort. Instead, take a stand for the parts you love and lead by example.
My, that's two soapboxes for me already in 2000.
My, that's two soapboxes for me already in 2000.
Mar 4, 2000, 10:16 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
I follow FT in a similar manner to QL. I post often on the US Airways threads (my airline) and then "scan" the Buzz, Omni, Community and other threads for items of interest. I have read every post on the US Airways forum for almost a year now. Do I read every trip report, omni post or Hilton post? Nope. Most of them are of no interest to me. When I see one I like... I'm in. It probably takes even my slow little brain only a nanosecond to decide that a 500 mile bonus opportunity on SAS is of no interest to me. On I go to the next one.
I'm no expert, but I am convinced that the one thing we can count on is change. FT will continue to evolve and redefine itself... much in the same way we all do as people. Sorry folks, this bus is rolling and we are the collective driver. If we head down a road I'm not comfortable with, I'll pull the cord and get off at the next stop... no transfers either!
Until then, I'll continue to read and enjoy the threads that interest me. And I'll skip those that do not. And I'll continue to meet up with FT'ers for a beer here and a steak there...
Change. Here it comes and I for one am looking forward to it. Enjoy the ride.
It's a sunny day!
[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 03-04-2000).]
I'm no expert, but I am convinced that the one thing we can count on is change. FT will continue to evolve and redefine itself... much in the same way we all do as people. Sorry folks, this bus is rolling and we are the collective driver. If we head down a road I'm not comfortable with, I'll pull the cord and get off at the next stop... no transfers either!
Until then, I'll continue to read and enjoy the threads that interest me. And I'll skip those that do not. And I'll continue to meet up with FT'ers for a beer here and a steak there...
Change. Here it comes and I for one am looking forward to it. Enjoy the ride.
It's a sunny day!
[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 03-04-2000).]
Mar 4, 2000, 11:14 am
#4
In Memoriam: Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: LGB/LAX
Programs: UA 1K, SPG Plat
Posts: 1,853
When I found Flyertalk, I was amazed at what I found and what I was learning about something that was quickly peaking my interest, frequent flying. At first it was for pleasure and then I got the chance at business flying and was hooked.
I read posts everyday from Rudi, PremEx, Baobab, and Merry. I didn't know who these people were but I did enjoy reading their messages and usually found a tip in every post. Now most of the postings are about mypoints, or how many United FA's sit in FC, or how quanity of posts is better than the quality of the posts. And as Merry has pointed out, a lot of the "old timers" have stopped posting.
I am in the same boat as QuietLion and Geo1004 above me, I am getting to read the Continental and Marriott forums and starting to skip the rest as it is not giving me the information that used to be here.
I read posts everyday from Rudi, PremEx, Baobab, and Merry. I didn't know who these people were but I did enjoy reading their messages and usually found a tip in every post. Now most of the postings are about mypoints, or how many United FA's sit in FC, or how quanity of posts is better than the quality of the posts. And as Merry has pointed out, a lot of the "old timers" have stopped posting.
I am in the same boat as QuietLion and Geo1004 above me, I am getting to read the Continental and Marriott forums and starting to skip the rest as it is not giving me the information that used to be here.
Mar 4, 2000, 11:20 am
#5
Suspended
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Seattle
Programs: Ephesians 4:31-32
Posts: 10,690
Thank you for you post, Nick, it is good to see you back on the board. You are right the board has changed.
As geo1004 has stated, The inevitablility of change is unequivocally inevitable. Let's face it, we simply can't stuff the genie back into the bottle.
While I was not here at the very beginning, I have been around most of FlyerTalk's life and have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. Certainly as new people come on board, they will have some of the same questions that we have had in the past during that phase of our learning cycle, and it seems to me that whenever that has happened, some very computer clever Old Timer has courteously directed them to the existing thread.
The key is courtesy at all times--even when some member of our ever growing population makes a post with which we disagree or does not interest us. As new people come from other boards with less decorum than we enjoy, it may take them a while to understand the high degree of general civility which prevails FlyerTalk. During that learning curve (which may take longer for some than for others), we Old (To Medium Old) Timers must all take great care to remain gracious, and (as QuietLion pointed out) lead by example.
As parents we quickly learn that it is far more effective to reinforce the behavior we wish to encourage with lots of attention, and to ignore that which we wish will go away. I believe this philosophy works equally effectively here as in our homes.
It is true that there are simply too many posts now for most of us to read all of them, and that is fine. I for one happen to love the Community which includes many people whom I have grown to know and care about very much. On the other hand, I rarely read The Buzz these days because I focus primarily on flying and credit card miles, but I am still very happy that it is there for folks who want to find every last possible way of adding on more miles. There are occasions, however, when some other FlyerTalker has directed me via e-mail to a specific promotion on The Buzz, much to my benefit.
As long as we are all mature, tolerant and open minded, I sincerely believe the Board can continue to grow and change to the benefit of all for many years to come. I sure hope so! My life would be a less rich and diverse mosaic without all that I have gained from FlyerTalk.
[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-04-2000).]
You are right the board has changed.As geo1004 has stated, The inevitablility of change is unequivocally inevitable. Let's face it, we simply can't stuff the genie back into the bottle.
While I was not here at the very beginning, I have been around most of FlyerTalk's life and have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. Certainly as new people come on board, they will have some of the same questions that we have had in the past during that phase of our learning cycle, and it seems to me that whenever that has happened, some very computer clever Old Timer has courteously directed them to the existing thread.
The key is courtesy at all times--even when some member of our ever growing population makes a post with which we disagree or does not interest us. As new people come from other boards with less decorum than we enjoy, it may take them a while to understand the high degree of general civility which prevails FlyerTalk. During that learning curve (which may take longer for some than for others), we Old (To Medium Old) Timers must all take great care to remain gracious, and (as QuietLion pointed out) lead by example.
As parents we quickly learn that it is far more effective to reinforce the behavior we wish to encourage with lots of attention, and to ignore that which we wish will go away. I believe this philosophy works equally effectively here as in our homes.
It is true that there are simply too many posts now for most of us to read all of them, and that is fine. I for one happen to love the Community which includes many people whom I have grown to know and care about very much. On the other hand, I rarely read The Buzz these days because I focus primarily on flying and credit card miles, but I am still very happy that it is there for folks who want to find every last possible way of adding on more miles. There are occasions, however, when some other FlyerTalker has directed me via e-mail to a specific promotion on The Buzz, much to my benefit.
As long as we are all mature, tolerant and open minded, I sincerely believe the Board can continue to grow and change to the benefit of all for many years to come. I sure hope so! My life would be a less rich and diverse mosaic without all that I have gained from FlyerTalk.
[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-04-2000).]
Mar 4, 2000, 12:21 pm
#6
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 19,523
Boy this is a great thread. Everybody has articulated their view points very well and I agree with most all of them. I can't really think of anything to add but to say while I can relate to everything Merry has commented on, I think my opinion on this is pretty much what Quietlion posted above.
Mar 4, 2000, 12:36 pm
#7
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Houston, Texas, TEXAS
Posts: 1,510
Nick,
Glad to see your post. Having been here under 2 different monikers (jaws43 & JAWS_II) since early 1998, my interest in the original purpose of this board is waning. I have reduced myself to looking at items that have an effect on my travel and posting only rarely. I agree with QL and sincerely aspire that (a big aspiration) this board will somehow return to meaningful items.
Glad to see your post. Having been here under 2 different monikers (jaws43 & JAWS_II) since early 1998, my interest in the original purpose of this board is waning. I have reduced myself to looking at items that have an effect on my travel and posting only rarely. I agree with QL and sincerely aspire that (a big aspiration) this board will somehow return to meaningful items.
Mar 4, 2000, 3:20 pm
#8
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: See pitflyer
Posts: 1,620
Just to add to what geo and others have said, my typical section of Flyertalk includes these steps:
Open my USAirways bookmark and view all new messages. like geo I read every message (and reply to most of them! <g> )
Open my 'posted today' bookmark and read only those that interest me, which are interestingly enough posts complaining about United, Marriott, Hertz and iterinaries.
Works for me. If I am bored, I'll open up other threads like I did right now. No muss, no fuss!
Open my USAirways bookmark and view all new messages. like geo I read every message (and reply to most of them! <g> )
Open my 'posted today' bookmark and read only those that interest me, which are interestingly enough posts complaining about United, Marriott, Hertz and iterinaries.
Works for me. If I am bored, I'll open up other threads like I did right now. No muss, no fuss!
Mar 4, 2000, 3:58 pm
#9
Commander Catcop
Join Date: May 1998
Posts: 10,259
Everyone has made great points here.
I'm sad that things have to change. But do there?
There are a few things that haven't (at least for me
*I'm still getting good information from this board.
*IT's still my most frequently visited Web Site (when not tinkering with the Catman Do 2 Web Site at:
http://home.att.net/~m.blanchards/12.cat-man-do-2.html
*The friendships, the family that I have built from the board... that will not change.
It's that last point that we should all keep in mind. Flyertalk itself may change, but the friendships haven't.
And it will always be great for me to meet New members of the community and helping them out.
So let's focus on that.
I'm sad that things have to change. But do there?
There are a few things that haven't (at least for me
*I'm still getting good information from this board.
*IT's still my most frequently visited Web Site (when not tinkering with the Catman Do 2 Web Site at:
http://home.att.net/~m.blanchards/12.cat-man-do-2.html
*The friendships, the family that I have built from the board... that will not change.
It's that last point that we should all keep in mind. Flyertalk itself may change, but the friendships haven't.
And it will always be great for me to meet New members of the community and helping them out.
So let's focus on that.
Mar 4, 2000, 5:49 pm
#10
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: IAD
Programs: AA Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 27,067
Maybe that is why Randy wanted someone to watch his back Remember your promise Catman Incidentally that was for a proposal to create an extra forum, which is exactly the opposite of what Merry is proposing. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000089.html
I have been here from the start with two monikers (pgupta011, PG). In a sense I can relate to what Merry is saying, although I feel that the problem is more a problem of growth. Some of the people (Rudi, PremEx) are still posting a lot, but as a percentage of total posts, it is less.
I am not sure if eliminating forums will help. Partly because folks have got used to posting. I am all for abolishing OMNI, but will folks still post what they are posting on OMNI to the "super" forum. If so, it will not increase the focus. And for some forums like say community, I actually prefer a separate forum, since I rarely visit it, and having a large number of forums is good because then I can just visit the ones of interest. Merry, if I understand what you are saying about taking it off-line, that would likely not be welcomed by a large number of people, some of whom have already posted here, though no one has come flat out against it probably in deference to you.
"The Buzz" is supposed to be the forum for discussion of FF programs.
Mileage earning opportunities have not decreased, since the web has grown a lot and the web sites are throwing a lot of freebies and incentives.
I agree with the comments on beating the airlines/reps and the publishing of letters, but some people find the letters very useful. To each their own.
It is hard to find things sometime. We need a better search engine, and possibly even a cataloging mechanism like Yahoo. But that is probably too much work.
I agree that baobab is missed.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-05-2000).]
Remember your promise Catman Incidentally that was for a proposal to create an extra forum, which is exactly the opposite of what Merry is proposing. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000089.html I have been here from the start with two monikers (pgupta011, PG). In a sense I can relate to what Merry is saying, although I feel that the problem is more a problem of growth. Some of the people (Rudi, PremEx) are still posting a lot, but as a percentage of total posts, it is less.
I am not sure if eliminating forums will help. Partly because folks have got used to posting. I am all for abolishing OMNI, but will folks still post what they are posting on OMNI to the "super" forum. If so, it will not increase the focus. And for some forums like say community, I actually prefer a separate forum, since I rarely visit it, and having a large number of forums is good because then I can just visit the ones of interest. Merry, if I understand what you are saying about taking it off-line, that would likely not be welcomed by a large number of people, some of whom have already posted here, though no one has come flat out against it probably in deference to you.
"The Buzz" is supposed to be the forum for discussion of FF programs.
Mileage earning opportunities have not decreased, since the web has grown a lot and the web sites are throwing a lot of freebies and incentives.
I agree with the comments on beating the airlines/reps and the publishing of letters, but some people find the letters very useful. To each their own.
It is hard to find things sometime. We need a better search engine, and possibly even a cataloging mechanism like Yahoo. But that is probably too much work.
I agree that baobab is missed.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-05-2000).]
Mar 5, 2000, 2:45 pm
#11
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
I agree with Merry on a key point and that is people venting their customer service issues here. 99% of the problems are limited to the person making the claim. I almost never have had the same problem even though I fly the same airline and stay in the same hotel. I feel sorry for the airline or hotel staff that have to deal with the people complaining.
Let's try to stop such postings and concentrate on what is useful to the reader. If you get stuck in weather and the airline didn't take as good care of you as you wished, keep it to yourself.
As many of our veteran posters have said, common sense and a pleasant manner will get you much farther than complaining.
Let's try to stop such postings and concentrate on what is useful to the reader. If you get stuck in weather and the airline didn't take as good care of you as you wished, keep it to yourself.
As many of our veteran posters have said, common sense and a pleasant manner will get you much farther than complaining.
Mar 5, 2000, 2:46 pm
#12
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in LIMA, PERU
Posts: 58,620
Oh come on, Merry Flyer! You used to spoil for the sort of contention that is swirling around FT these days. Please don't tell me you've gone soft in your old age!
BTW, Even though I can be a bit of a whiner I agree with you 100%, and if you check the records, I was one of the few who lobbied against the original expansion of the forums. Alas.
[This message has been edited by Matt Wald (edited 03-05-2000).]
BTW, Even though I can be a bit of a whiner I agree with you 100%, and if you check the records, I was one of the few who lobbied against the original expansion of the forums. Alas.
[This message has been edited by Matt Wald (edited 03-05-2000).]
Mar 5, 2000, 6:15 pm
#13
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: IAD
Programs: AA Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 27,067
The number of forums is irrelevant. The issue is what is being posted. The focus has expanded greatly from just frequent flyer program. Now it is parties, jokers, hobbies, general travel industry news, ... etc. I think that earlier it was much more focused on just frequent flyer programs. If we are going to talk about all these things, then I think that having a larger number of forums is appropriate.
In defense of Randy he is very reluctant to increase the number of forums. The current forum list simply represents what we all collectively want.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-05-2000).]
In defense of Randy he is very reluctant to increase the number of forums. The current forum list simply represents what we all collectively want.
[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-05-2000).]
Mar 6, 2000, 12:18 am
#14
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
PG: My point is that, this board used to (I am not sure about anymore) havea message when you first logged on specifying that it was about FF programes - general travel chat was directed elsewhere.
By creating the extra forums, this board has been allowed to loose focus, and as I result I think is a much less vibrant and relevant place (my view only, I accept other disagree).
Because there is a lack of focus, some people feel legitimate in posting about non-FF topics.
Get back to the origional reason-detre and you have solved the problem?
Matt: "spoil for contention" me? I think it may be time to do a phoenix job, you know me to well....
By creating the extra forums, this board has been allowed to loose focus, and as I result I think is a much less vibrant and relevant place (my view only, I accept other disagree).
Because there is a lack of focus, some people feel legitimate in posting about non-FF topics.
Get back to the origional reason-detre and you have solved the problem?
Matt: "spoil for contention" me? I think it may be time to do a phoenix job, you know me to well....