I agree with Jon, who I have admired as one of the most grounded people on these boards ever since I've been coming. I've yet to respond to any of the posts by you-know-who, because it has been my experience in other discussion boards that to do so only encourages them. If this type of person can't get a rise out of anyone, then they'll go away.

As for the part about mandatory e-mail registration, I support that, but people could always make an address up, or take someone else's. It would not be a simple matter of enforcing.

Again, ignore them and they'll go away.

Rotten apples crop up from time to time and from my experience on Yahoo stock boards, which attract some of the most uncivil people, the best policy is to ignore and not respond. Let the proper authorities, so to speak, deal with the situation as they will be far more effective than one or many of us trying to engage in a flame war which just further denigrates the quality of the board.

Who needs the bad karma anyway? I try and look at these types of posts with a bit of pity for the individual making them and just move on. I refuse to let them affect me in a negative way. One may not have control over what others post but one certainly has control over the way one chooses to react or not react to those posts.

On a positive note I just want to say to all my fellow FT's that in the relatively short amount of time I have been a participant I have learned allot about travel and FF. opportunities but more importantly I have enjoyed the stories and personalities that make up the heart and soul of FT. It is a privilege to be associated with such a decent and fine group of people and may it continue to be so. I sincerely look forward to being able to put a face to some of the handles eventually. Thanks all

Jon Toner:

I agree about ignoring - not responging to the Trolls. (I even posted the alt-faq-abuse guide to sitting on your hands.) My comments are not to take on the idiots, but close the door (a little bit) to them.

Going back two or so years, there were those of us who saw the potential for abuse, and suggested steps to help deal with it. Some of these suggestions were:

1) Charge a small membership fee for Flyertalk - I'd easily pay $5-10 a year for the opportunity to contribute to this community and gain from it's insights. Let's see how many Trolls are willing to post garbage when FT has their credit card on file. The money could be used for general upkeep, contests, whatever. The "multiple personalities" would also go away if the costs started adding up.

2) Make some forums read-only for Junior members. Make an "ask flyertalk" forum that anyone can post to, and leave "omni" and "general traveltalk" open, but restrict all of the others to people who's posts have been seen by the community. The first 30 or so posts should reveal the tennor of the poster. (This would also stop the frequent "new poster" who posts the same question or press release in every forum.)

3) Make all new passwords expire in 2 weeks, and send permanant passwords by snail-mail. It would require a real mailing address to be a flyertalk member. Only the Webflyer staff would see these records, but again, it would eliminate anonymous posters and multiple personalities.

4) Require the public display of an e-mail address to facilitate private communications to resolve and diffuse potential disputes.

5) Allow the community some input to rapidly close topics or ban users for abuse or inappropriate posts. Moderators or Superusers could have these rights.

None of this IMHO would take anything away from our community. It would not feed the trolls. It would just mean thst we've made the decision not to be stupid about it anymore.


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 07-13-2000).]

Thank you for your sage and rational advice, Jon Toner and NJDavid. Every time that I read disparaging posts I develop the immediate impulse to either defend who is being attacked or respond with contempt to the aggressor. Thank you for reaffirming the positive values of this board and how we as a community should react to such individuals. The only thing that can come of such bantor is to further incite and fuel the fire.
I agree with every item that NJDavid addressed. I do not think that it would be that difficult to implement, and I think that it would go great lengths at �weeding� out those who are not truly dedicated to the integrity of this forum. I particularly agree with the idea of having temporary passwords that expire in two weeks, and then sending out a new one to a valid email address. This is not quite on the level of a waiting period to purchase a gun, or the like, but I think that it is the same concept; those who really want to take part of these boards will wait, and provide a legitimate address that can be tracked by the hierarchy at WebFlyer. I also do not have a problem with a nominal membership fee. With the advice, ideas, and relationships shared- it will more than pay for itself in the long run. Even a nominal fee ought to discourage those who are not interested in our common good.
Hopefully, Randy and others at FT can find a way to reconcile this.

NJDavid:

I misinterpreted your earlier post (re: defending) and thought it meant defending via responding rather than defending via tightening board security.

I agree with your suggestions - although I think that if the information was available at The House of Miles, public display of e-mail addresses would not be so important. My e-mail address is out there, but I know there are others who are more concerned about privacy.

Just a thought.


------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

I totally agree with NJDavid. A small user charge should not deter the vast majority.

We could remove 95% of the stupidity that is turning areas of this board into shouting matches.

I for one would be delighted to pay a $10 annual membership if it stopped all the trolls.

Stewart.

I don't agree with NJDavid at all. His suggestions are appreciated and were clearly well-intentioned, but I think that putting in any kind of barrier would greatly reduce the size of the universe of posters.

You have no idea how many people would simply never post in the first place if you told them in the upfront that to get a password you owe $10. Same with a snail-mail password. I do that on a lot of other boards, if it requires me to do something (even to register) that prevents me from posting or doing something right away, I don't bother.

And really, there are 1 or 2 posters every year that really cause a ruckus. It's worth the minor pain of passing by their posts to ensure that the board is open and thus attractive for the most people to post on.

One of the great things about FlyerTalk is that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion without penalty for respectfully disagreeing with another.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with NJDavid.

When I first visited this board, I thought it was pretty cool, but I had no idea just how great it was. I lurked for about a month looking around maybe four times in that period. There was a post that I wanted to respond to, so I decided to take the plunge and register.

If I had to pay a fee and/or wait for a snail-mail password, I can say without a doubt that I would have said it wasn't worth it and moved on.

Now, of course, I know that it is worth any penny that you could charge me. In fact, it is priceless IMO. But before I started exploring in depth (now to the point of about 8 hrs/day! ), I wouldn't have thought it was worth the fee.

Nonetheless, I trust Randy and the entire WebFlyer staff will do what they feel best for the FlyerTalk community, and if making this a fee-site, etc, is what they so decide, I wouldn't think twice about paying the fee. But I'm afraid it will stop future newbies from becoming some of the best FlyerTalk contributors in the future.

BB

By the way, here is a suggestion I submitted to Randy. While it won't stop users who better be left unmentioned, it will help newbies learn the rules...

---
Dear Randy,

As you may know from checking the message boards, FlyerTalk is at a point where many people are posting irritating messages, bashing others, and the like. I feel that we are on the verge of losing some of the most admirable, interesting FlyerTalkers, who have long assisted others and assisted FlyerTalk in becoming known in the industry.

FlyerTalk now has many active and lurking airline representatives, and we have received attention from your organization for our industry impact. I fear that if things continue as they are, we might lose this attention.

As Frequent Flyers increase and the board becomes more known, FlyerTalkers will too increase. Unfortunately, I feel that these "newbies" don't lurk before they join, so they can't get the lay-of-the-land. As a suggestion, I recommend creating a new screen that a new-member must read before joining (much like the current disclaimer screen). The screen should have etiquette about the board. For example, each person has a right to their opinion. You may state yours but do not take this right away from another. Also, use judgement in where to post a message. News articles that you would like to alert others too belong in the news forum. If you have a topic, post it in a single place rather than in multiple boards. Do not post messages like "How can I earn more Airline X miles?" Instead, read postings on the boards regarding bonuses or use a source (such as InsideFlyer) that lists all airline promotions.

As you know, I am on FlyerTalk Live chat almost every night that I am not traveling or busy. There has been an influx in newbies for your chat tonight, and last night we had many newbies show up a night early. They asked questions like "How do I earn 15,000 Delta miles" and the like. If these get posted on the boards, you can imagine how the quality can go down.

I realize you are not godlike and like to let the community self-govern ourselves. I respect and commend this. But simply creating a tutorial for new users might alleviate some of our problems.

On behalf of all FlyerTalkers, thank you for this board. You have brought many together, and I'd hate to see us break apart.

Thank you for your time and effort that you put towards this great home for many of us. I'll "see" you tonight at chat.

Yours,
BostonBoy

Thanks for all the comments. Just a short reminder that the ideas I posted were not all mine, but representative of a number of opinions, and that they were not necessarily meant to be taken all together. (When first discussed, there were actually many disagreements along the same lines as stated here.) My point was that some foresaw this type of problem, and recommended steps to prevent what has already happened. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I personally actually like the idea of the immediate password with full look access but only partial post access, until the "real" password comes in the mail, or a certain number of posts are reached. This way, as some have stated, a newcomer can get the immediate privelage to post, but with some restrictions, and can get full access only if they have a real mailing address to receive the password.

But honestly I don't care what is done, as long as it's something.

Just some comments from me:

It is truly impressive that FT has so many people taking such a personal interest in the well-being of this site. It is a credit to the site, and also to its faithful member/supporters. (This is starting to sound like it should be on Punki's thread, so I'll try and get back on subject.)

e-mail registrations: I agree that FT staff should have access to our e-mail address, but I would of course understand why many responsible posters would not want anyone and everyone (such as flaming "visitors") to see it.

FT could send the initial password to that address, to at least make sure it is "real" and to add a level of cumberance that would be acceptable to serious newbies yet enough of a pain to discourage some flamers. When prob's arise, FT sends that address an e-mail saying "Due to non-compliance with FT policy, your access has been suspended. If you feel there has been a mistake or otherwise want to regain your access, please contact us at FT@wherever. Your access will be revoked in 30 days if there is no response."

Since there are ways around Net "protections," though, the long term duty for us non-FT-staffers is just not to encourage such trolls.

Regarding NJDavid's 5, well thought-out ideas, my comments are:
1) I would not mind a fee, but as BB says it may limit otherwise desired newbies.
2) Interesting! Newbies should definitely be able to see everything - otherwise they would not get sucked into this wonderful world as we have all been!
3) Snailmail would bring unnecessary expense and inconvenience - especially considering the many non-N. America dwellers!
4) and 5) See above.

I'm sure among us the most appropriate solutions can be discovered. I do hope those that are on "indefinite leave" because of this incident can join us again soon. I would never leave this board because of such things (I chatted yesterday that I'm a duck, and that even the dirty water rolls right off my back).

This is perhaps mainly (at this point) selfish of me because I still gain so much more out of this site than I contribute. I would hope, though, that as I learn more and become able to spread more info than I read I would find a new (less selfish) reason to stay on thru the unfortunate-yet-occasional ugliness.

In other words, we newbies need you guys (and gals)!

-Always a Kid and a newbie at heart,
KP



[This message has been edited by kidpachinko (edited 07-13-2000).]

Jon Toner: Actually, I haven't been practicing what I preached, since I only responded once, and that in a fairly inoccuous manner, more out of sadness than anger.

I wish to associate myself with all of NJDavid's suggestions, which I think would be a big help.

For the time being, I'm able to control myself and hope the trolls will go away if ignored. But if not, just how much destructive behavior are we all expected to tolerate? Somewhere, there will surely be a limit.

Allow a 2-3 weeks trial membership for newbies/lurkers and then start charging fee and assign passwords - just an opinion.

This may be late, but --

1. I seldom read the "general" fora ("Buzz" to "Coupon Connection") except on weekends, so this is the first time I've seen the fuss that's developed since last Sunday. I am, however, heartened by two observations:

- (a) it's nice that the Troll(s) got so little support and the "good guys" (of both sexes) so uniformly rallied 'round.

- (b) the "invasion" seems to have been encysted promptly, which is the sign of a healthy body and of a viable and effective defensive system.

2. I second the notion that the "good guys" (see above) ought not to leave the scene because of the Troll(s). You are what made the site what it is, and you are why we're here - part of our communal body. You are, quite literally, part of us. (However, if someone decides to reduce participation for other reasons, that's up to him/her. To them I can only say, "Please come back when you feel you want to; you're always welcome.")

3. I agree that a working e-mail address should be required. It allows potential misunderstandings to be worked out, in private, before they metastasize into a flame war, publicly hurt feelings, and (in the worst case) emnity.

4. I respectfully do not agree that the e-mail address must be a private ISP rather than a "free" internet address such as hotmail/yahoo or the like. Even e-bay does not require that. The reasons have already been given (ease of access while travelling, preventing "harvesting" of personal account addresses by spammers, etc.). If the "anonymity" of such addresses is a problem, Randy can require a "real" e-mail address be provided to him at the time of signing up, but that address should remain known only to Randy and the owner absent some major development such as a subpoena.

5. Now - let's get back to miles and smiles.

Don

Regarding the issue of paying a fee to use FlyerTalk, I don't know if it would be possible to set up the UBB software to do so, but an idea occurred to me: if you pay a subscriber fee, you can post; if not, you can still read the board.

That's how Silicon Investor, a high tech investment site, works.