Miserable flight with Chinese....
Jan 14, 2008 | 6:09 pm
#31
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: MSP
Programs: LH, DL
Posts: 1,757
Random thoughts on the last several posts:
--There are indeed NO parallels in the USA, to the way you have to get things done in China. Part of it is sheer numbers of people that are also trying to scrabble to get things accomplished, part of it is language barrier (if you don't speak at least intermediate Mandarin, it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on), and part of it is just that inscrutable Chinese logic as to why some idiotic regulation or procedure exists.
--You spend a lot more time on the "infrastructure" tasks of life in China, especially if you are on your own (student, freelancer, locally hired). A list of mundane personal tasks--banking, grocery shopping, dry cleaners, ticket pickup, etc--that might take 1-2 hours in the USA may take 1 or more days in China. To free up time, expats with even part-time ayis (maids) send them out to do as much of this as possible, as a 3-morning-a-week cleaning lady only costs about $20/week (big city price). Just cleaning your apartment takes more effort, as the dust and pollution in most Chinese locations means no surface can go more than 2 days without requiring thorough cleaning. I've yet to see anyplace in the USA where you can't get by with once a week (or even longer--OK I confess I'm not the Martha Stewart of housekeeping on any continent!)
--I know plenty of students, English teachers, and others NOT on cushy expat packages who lead very fulfilling and happy lives in China, despite the daily frustrations and occasional China Rants. So having money to burn isn't the critical factor. It's not necessarily even based on one's prior Third World travels, as I know well-travelled people who've enjoyed places widely regarded as reasonable toughies like India or Egypt, but who despise China (and vice versa). The differential seems to come down to one's innate personality, adaptability, and expectations. And whether the culture just strikes the wrong "tone" with one. Vesicle obviously just can't get in tune with China, and that's OK. Best thing to do in this situation is move on to something that works for you--life's too short to stay in an uncomfortable situation and there are plenty of interesting options out there in the world.
--Even with my episodic Bad China Days, I actually like it here. China grows on one...like a fungus! And if you are here to work, and have the right skill set, you can make and save gaboodles of money, which is one justification for putting up with a lot of aggravation. However, due to the serious quality of life issues such as pollution, most expats who have open-ended stays (not finite corporate or diplomatic postings) eventually decide to move out of China, or to a relative "clean" location in China. I'll have to re-evaluate this myself in a couple more years.
--Most long-term expats, of which I'll include myself, find they must leave China at intervals of no more than every 4-5 months to "recharge", not to mention change the air in their lungs. This is called a Sanity Break, and one good thing about living in China is that in only several hours, you can be on a nice beach with a tall cold one in hand, in a carefree environment in SE Asia.
--There are indeed NO parallels in the USA, to the way you have to get things done in China. Part of it is sheer numbers of people that are also trying to scrabble to get things accomplished, part of it is language barrier (if you don't speak at least intermediate Mandarin, it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on), and part of it is just that inscrutable Chinese logic as to why some idiotic regulation or procedure exists.
--You spend a lot more time on the "infrastructure" tasks of life in China, especially if you are on your own (student, freelancer, locally hired). A list of mundane personal tasks--banking, grocery shopping, dry cleaners, ticket pickup, etc--that might take 1-2 hours in the USA may take 1 or more days in China. To free up time, expats with even part-time ayis (maids) send them out to do as much of this as possible, as a 3-morning-a-week cleaning lady only costs about $20/week (big city price). Just cleaning your apartment takes more effort, as the dust and pollution in most Chinese locations means no surface can go more than 2 days without requiring thorough cleaning. I've yet to see anyplace in the USA where you can't get by with once a week (or even longer--OK I confess I'm not the Martha Stewart of housekeeping on any continent!)
--I know plenty of students, English teachers, and others NOT on cushy expat packages who lead very fulfilling and happy lives in China, despite the daily frustrations and occasional China Rants. So having money to burn isn't the critical factor. It's not necessarily even based on one's prior Third World travels, as I know well-travelled people who've enjoyed places widely regarded as reasonable toughies like India or Egypt, but who despise China (and vice versa). The differential seems to come down to one's innate personality, adaptability, and expectations. And whether the culture just strikes the wrong "tone" with one. Vesicle obviously just can't get in tune with China, and that's OK. Best thing to do in this situation is move on to something that works for you--life's too short to stay in an uncomfortable situation and there are plenty of interesting options out there in the world.
--Even with my episodic Bad China Days, I actually like it here. China grows on one...like a fungus! And if you are here to work, and have the right skill set, you can make and save gaboodles of money, which is one justification for putting up with a lot of aggravation. However, due to the serious quality of life issues such as pollution, most expats who have open-ended stays (not finite corporate or diplomatic postings) eventually decide to move out of China, or to a relative "clean" location in China. I'll have to re-evaluate this myself in a couple more years.
--Most long-term expats, of which I'll include myself, find they must leave China at intervals of no more than every 4-5 months to "recharge", not to mention change the air in their lungs. This is called a Sanity Break, and one good thing about living in China is that in only several hours, you can be on a nice beach with a tall cold one in hand, in a carefree environment in SE Asia.
Though my "recharge" trip is about once a year.
How good is your ayi? I think mine comes twice a week for 2 hours each time (doesn't do the best job but she dusts and mops) for 4 USD a session. We had to teach her to wash dishes with soap though.
I will end this post by stating that as much as I like China, I couldn't see myself living here on a long term basis (raising family etc) unless I was on some kind of big expat package. I could pull it off for some time as a bachelor or something but..I'll also say that money can be critical since it allows lots of people who otherwise would get spit out by China, to stay here and enjoy life, cocoon living or not.
Jan 15, 2008 | 12:46 am
#32
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 258
So let me ask you this...though many issues are matters of preference...the air is not. Breathing the heavy amounts of pollution is not healthy and you cannot change it. The damage occurring to your lungs are worth it to you to live there?
I mean if you lived in an Indian village with infected water and no bottle or purifying source would you stay?
Whether you can stand the taste or smell is one thing...but the damage is happening no matter your 'mood'.
related...doesn't matter to me what any other city was like years ago as I don't have to breathe that air.
I mean if you lived in an Indian village with infected water and no bottle or purifying source would you stay?
Whether you can stand the taste or smell is one thing...but the damage is happening no matter your 'mood'.
related...doesn't matter to me what any other city was like years ago as I don't have to breathe that air.
Jan 15, 2008 | 2:35 am
#33
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: MSP
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So let me ask you this...though many issues are matters of preference...the air is not. Breathing the heavy amounts of pollution is not healthy and you cannot change it. The damage occurring to your lungs are worth it to you to live there?
I mean if you lived in an Indian village with infected water and no bottle or purifying source would you stay?
Whether you can stand the taste or smell is one thing...but the damage is happening no matter your 'mood'.
related...doesn't matter to me what any other city was like years ago as I don't have to breathe that air.
I mean if you lived in an Indian village with infected water and no bottle or purifying source would you stay?
Whether you can stand the taste or smell is one thing...but the damage is happening no matter your 'mood'.
related...doesn't matter to me what any other city was like years ago as I don't have to breathe that air.
2. I'm not in an Indian village (though I have to say even Indian villages now have bottled water/soda for sale, so I'd be ok.) I'm sure I eat contaminated food on a daily basis, whether its here or in India. I'm still alive and kicking. This question, unfortunately, only affects the extremely impoverished, regardless of nation, which is sad on it's own since they can't control it. I'm in a major metropolis where I can get clean water and there are tons of international facilities...
3. We probably destroy our bodies on a daily basis given the junk we eat in America. Look at cancer rates in the US, why are they so high? I'm no doctor or scientist, but I am sure this has something to do with it. Look at the ingredients list of things you eat in the US. It's scary. Food I eat in Beijing, surprisingly is probably much fresher (i eat much healthier here for some reason and have lost lots of weight and not through dieting, that's for sure). MSG is widely used in the US too, or alternatives, we just don't know about it.
4. Fair enough. Was just making a point that Beijing and other Chinese cities are only really developing now and will of course suffer from growing pains, pollution being one of them..
Jan 15, 2008 | 2:37 am
#34
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
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Vesicle, not sure if you're speaking to me, but yes, it is currently worth it to me to live in China (Beijing). There are not many other places in the world right now where I can make as much money doing what I like to do, and have new opportunities pop up almost weekly. Definitely not doable in home country the USA. And it's an interesting place to be, with something new (not necessarily pleasant, but new) everyday. Boredom is my enemy. In Beijing and despite the bad press, we actually have quite a few annual clear days, esp. from Sept-April, and on the worst pollution days, I limit outside exposure and stay indoors. I have air cleaners at home and office. I get my lungs checked every year to the extent possible (this is partly to check for TB exposure also). And I'm fortunate to have the flexibility and can afford to leave China for extended holidays, several times a year. More unfortunately, I have unrelated medical issues that will certainly kill me before the long term exposure to pollution does. And I have no dependents who rely on my continued good health for their survival, or whom I need to consider in my decision-making process.
Jan 15, 2008 | 2:41 am
#35
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 258
I do not eat the things WHEN I am in the USA you that you mentioned...nor do I eat MSG knowingly.
Even on 'good' pollution days it is still far below a healthy level in Most Chinese cities.
Expats live there primarily for the money as you admitted...not many would do it for chump change as they would and do in nice places
People can justify whatever they wish...like a smoker saying they feel fine so the cigs aren't as bad as people say.
Even on 'good' pollution days it is still far below a healthy level in Most Chinese cities.
Expats live there primarily for the money as you admitted...not many would do it for chump change as they would and do in nice places
People can justify whatever they wish...like a smoker saying they feel fine so the cigs aren't as bad as people say.
Jan 15, 2008 | 2:58 am
#36
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
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Vesicle, I'm no longer sure what your point is on this thread. You went from bashing the Chinese to seemingly chastising some of us for staying in China. We're all adults here and have the right to make our own decisions on the tradeoffs we face in our respective situations. I'm not feeling the need to "justify" anything to you or anybody else, and if you're trying to lay a guilt trip or something on those of us who have different opinions, different motivations, or make different choices than you, well...it isn't working.
Jan 15, 2008 | 3:23 am
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Vesicle, I'm no longer sure what your point is on this thread. You went from bashing the Chinese to seemingly chastising some of us for staying in China. We're all adults here and have the right to make our own decisions on the tradeoffs we face in our respective situations. I'm not feeling the need to "justify" anything to you or anybody else, and if you're trying to lay a guilt trip or something on those of us who have different opinions, different motivations, or make different choices than you, well...it isn't working.
My first visit to China was over 13 years ago -- I was there on business. Of the staff and colleagues who went with me, some loved it and some hated it. I was one who loved it and I've been back many times since and, if I can ever learn the language, and we can afford it by then, Mrs. PTravel and I are considering retiring there. Indeed, if there was any demand for an American litigator who doesn't speak Mandarin, I'd move there now in a heartbeat. I can understand some people not loving China -- so much of Chinese culture is different from the West or heavily-western-influenced cultures. I don't understand the need to simply different dismiss a country that holds 1/3 of the world's population, has a 4000+ year old continuous culture and history, as well as the non-Chinese who find it a fascinating, fun, appealing place to live and visit.
Incidentally, with respect to the original topic of this thread, I've flown many times in China and on many airlines, both Chinese and western. I've certainly never suffered the hell described by the OP. China has the Chinese equivalents of the Gomers and Kettles, rude businessmen, and other unpleasant flying types that we encounter in the U.S. Service on domestic Chinese airlines is dramatically, radically better than service on domestic airlines. I'm not denying his experience. I just wonder how much of it is attributable to pre-disposition and perception.
Jan 15, 2008 | 3:46 am
#38
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,368
[QUOTE=vesicle;9059540]Haha
Makes me feel a bit better as I have wondered at times if I AM a racist after having some pretty negative experiences with certain cultures.
QUOTE]
you are not a racist. you most likely had a restricted background and very closed up and insular upbringing ......and who really hasnt experienced much despite having said you have been to "many" places but not asia.....but you certainly give proof that this world has many different people and cultures and behaviour
and the plurality of it is so ......for me at least interesting and fascinating
your comments are useful in that ........well.......it speaks for itself.how useful it is .
Makes me feel a bit better as I have wondered at times if I AM a racist after having some pretty negative experiences with certain cultures.
QUOTE]
you are not a racist. you most likely had a restricted background and very closed up and insular upbringing ......and who really hasnt experienced much despite having said you have been to "many" places but not asia.....but you certainly give proof that this world has many different people and cultures and behaviour
and the plurality of it is so ......for me at least interesting and fascinating
your comments are useful in that ........well.......it speaks for itself.how useful it is .
Jan 15, 2008 | 4:18 am
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 258
You are very wrong about my background and upbringing. Believe whatever you like however as I know the truth can't be allowed to get in the way of reality...especially online.
I HAVE...been all over the world and lived and worked with many cultures...the ONLY place I did not enjoy to SOME degree (all have some problems as I indicated before) was China. Being poor or inexperienced is no excuse for being a savage..I have known loads of very poor people who were extremely respectful.
People on this site like to make suppositions about a poster's background to fit into their explanations...and they are normally wrong. If they disagree with what one has to say they dismiss it as inexperience or plain wrong. Perhaps you are the one who is wrong? gasp! It couldn't be!
My point is this...China sucked....and people who make excuses for pathetic social behaviors that exists in many places suck. Clear enough?
I HAVE...been all over the world and lived and worked with many cultures...the ONLY place I did not enjoy to SOME degree (all have some problems as I indicated before) was China. Being poor or inexperienced is no excuse for being a savage..I have known loads of very poor people who were extremely respectful.
People on this site like to make suppositions about a poster's background to fit into their explanations...and they are normally wrong. If they disagree with what one has to say they dismiss it as inexperience or plain wrong. Perhaps you are the one who is wrong? gasp! It couldn't be!
My point is this...China sucked....and people who make excuses for pathetic social behaviors that exists in many places suck. Clear enough?
Last edited by vesicle; Jan 15, 2008 at 4:24 am
Jan 15, 2008 | 6:50 am
#40
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,368
.you are too funny
did you say Savage ??.....from which refined world do you crawl from sir ? .......
tsk tsk ......some upbringing you have...tsk tsk.
this is not a forum to share such blinkered opinions esp ones bordering on extreme small mindedness...........
this is a great forum for people who has travelled the world near and far and who has useful and helpful and sensible comments - your comments went from an observation to one of petty and unworldly expressions.
did you say Savage ??.....from which refined world do you crawl from sir ? .......
tsk tsk ......some upbringing you have...tsk tsk.
this is not a forum to share such blinkered opinions esp ones bordering on extreme small mindedness...........
this is a great forum for people who has travelled the world near and far and who has useful and helpful and sensible comments - your comments went from an observation to one of petty and unworldly expressions.
Last edited by bearbrick; Jan 15, 2008 at 6:55 am
Jan 15, 2008 | 7:09 am
#41
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
I HAVE...been all over the world and lived and worked with many cultures...the ONLY place I did not enjoy to SOME degree (all have some problems as I indicated before) was China. Being poor or inexperienced is no excuse for being a savage..I have known loads of very poor people who were extremely respectful.
I understand that you've been all over the world (though I wonder whether your travels took you to other parts of south-east Asia, India, Africa or even, for that matter, places like Guadaloupe in the Caribbean). It seems to me there are a couple of things operative here. First, there are some significant cultural differences between China and the west (for example, the acceptability of staring, lack of queuing, etc.) with which you don't seem familiar. As you travel a lot, I'm sure you're familiar with good guide books and have found a series or two that you like. These would explain these cultural differences, so that you wouldn't have confused differences in culture with rudeness. Which one(s) did you read thoroughly before visiting China?
The second thing that comes to mind is that you may simply not be comfortable with cultures that depart too far from your own. That's okay if that's the case, but it's hardly the fault of the culture.
Finally, you seem focused on the idea that China is poor. Though there is certainly no shortage of poor people in China, it has a huge and increasingly affluent middle class. If your only experience was with poor people, I'm wondering exactly where and how you spent your apparently limited time in China. The middle class in China is larger than in the U.S., and in major cities, the quality of life is, generally, better (that's why we're thinking of retiring to China).
As I indicated, there are a number of reasons why people might not take to China. However, another reason might be attributable to simple xenophobia and racism. So, you think the Chinese are savages? No, they are not (or, at least, not any more than any other nationality and considerably less than many others). My wife is not a savage, nor are my Chinese friends and family, business associates, or the countless numbers of Chinese people I have met there on my own travels, and I find it personally offensive that you'd suggest they are. If you think otherwise, I'd sincerely recommend that you avoid FT "DOs" because, though I wouldn't violate the FT TOS by providing my opinion here of people who describe Chinese as "savages," I'd feel no constraint against doing so if I were to meet you in person.
Last edited by PTravel; Jan 15, 2008 at 8:47 am Reason: Fix silly typos caused by writing before I was awake.
Jan 15, 2008 | 7:57 am
#43
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,368
....but you neednt have said that to show further proof..it was obvious from the very beginning ..:-:and i am saying , writing , thinking and gesticulating.....all that ...you understand ???
Jan 15, 2008 | 11:43 am
#44
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: MSP
Programs: LH, DL
Posts: 1,757
This thread is getting out of hand, but I will comment on this.
No one in the US does. That's the problem. No one looks at labels that outline everything. If you've eaten something packaged/fast food, then you've had MSG and a hostful of other unnatural flavor enhancers..
No one in the US does. That's the problem. No one looks at labels that outline everything. If you've eaten something packaged/fast food, then you've had MSG and a hostful of other unnatural flavor enhancers..