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"Westernized" vs. "authentic" Chinese food
Before my last trip to China, I heard a lot about how tour groups generally went to mediocre "westernized" restaurants while independent travellers could enjoy "authentic" Chinese food. My previous trips to the mainland were all on guided tours (although I had spent a few weeks in Hong Kong without guides), so I wondered what exactly "authentic" Chinese food was. I also wondered if I would like it.
My first-hand take on this is that the differences are exaggerated. Yes, I ate better travelling independently than I remember eating on guided tours. But was the food that different, or "strange"? I would say "no," and I think most folks would agree with me -- at least if you've ever eaten anything other than standard Chinese-American take-out. At the fanciest restaurants -- like Xiao Wang's in Beijing or Shanghai Uncle in you-know-where -- the food was extremely "approachable" to Western palates. Indeed, at Shanghai Uncle, I was somewhat shocked to be served noodles with a cheese sauce: in my mind, it was more like an Italian dish than a Chinese one! I wondered if this dated back to the foreign concessions, and the influence they might have had over local cooking traditions. At more modest eateries, the food was sometimes a little stranger to deal with -- especially if you have not had much experience with dumplings (like dim sum). Still, the tastes and textures didn't seem terribly exotic to me (tasty, but nothing like the "strangeness" I find trying new Japanese foods). Generally, with the exception of a good dim sum restaurant in Beijing, I enjoyed the food at the more upscale restaurants better. Given how modestly priced these "expensive" restaurants were -- tough to spend more than $35 on dinner for 2, unless you go very heavy on the "specialty" dishes -- I saw little reason to economize. The only place where "authentic" food was a little hard to swallow was with Szechuan cooking. I like spicy foods, but even I was surprised by just how spicy "authentic" Szechuan food can be. My mouth truly felt like it was on fire after one rather mundane looking pork dish. If there was a way to request "not so spicy" in such an establishment in China, I'd recommend doing so. It's possible that others may have different perceptions, and I would be interested in reading them. |
Chinese food is extremely diverse. Ranging from stuff that is very acceptable to even the most timid of Western stomachs (think the classic scrambled eggs and tomato) through to stuff that even the toughest Western stomach will find 'difficult' (pigs feet anyone?).
And then you get the simply weird (to the Western mind at least) - dog, cat, snake, turtle, etc. Overall it's difficult to eat badly in China. Even the average street restaurant produces good food. The best way to get a good meal is undoubtedly to go for dinner with some Chinese - most Westerners get a bit lost when confronted with a full menu, hence we'll be on Beijing Duck again. There'll inevitably be some dish or other on the table that really isn't to your taste - but there'll be plenty of good stuff as well. The stereotype of the Western tour group heading to a buffet is true to a degree, but we should remember that it's not because the participants are Western, it's because it's a group. Chinese tour groups and big meetings often end up with the buffet option as well. It's the easiest way to cater to a large group. |
Just as 'I speak Chinese' doesn't tell you very much (there are six different mutually unintelligible Chinese languages and endless dialects of them), neither does the expression 'Chinese food' make much sense.
There are several major cooking schools, and host of minor variations. Most of these are almost entirely unknown to the West. There's probably no town in China without its own speciality dish. The menus of the majority of Chinese restaurants overseas are adulterated versions of Cantonese dishes, sweetened and made heavier and far less subtle for Western palates, and with a few greatest hits from other cuisines thrown in, but also adjusted by the tastebuds of the Cantonese. Dishes are also made worse by the same impetus that drives the adulteration of dishes in tour group restaurants--the substitution of cheaper ingredients for more expensive ones. Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the sweet-and-sour pork dish consisting of a tiny cube of pork in a squash ball-sized globe of dough. After a period in China, run-of-the-mill Chinese food like this overseas becomes almost inedible. But the original posting a little hard to understand. On the one hand it's claimed that the food away from tour group restaurants isn't much different, but that's compared to relatively expensive restaurants in Beijing and Shanghai that partly target the expat market. But then ordinary restaurants are mentioned, and Sichuan dishes in particular, and suddenly the food is different after all, although it's admitted that the author doesn't even know commonplaces of Chinatowns world wide, such as dim sum. Perhaps the surprise is that everything doesn't seem strange. But not even authentic Beijing and Shanghai restaurants can begin to represent the totality and variety of Chinese food, although reliable specialist regional restaurants can be found in both cities. Instead of visiting restaurants with menus of the usual generalities, such as Xiao Wang, proper Beijing cuisine should have been tried, perhaps at a 'lao Beijing' style restaurant, although there are fewer of those than there used to be, for Beijing classics such as jinjiang rou si, zha qiezi (pork between two slices of aubergine and deep fried), a wide variety of fried and baked snacks, and musky, salty dishes dominated by lamb and pork, noodles (ah--'clanging dish noodles'), and soya beans, not to mention jiaozi (dumplings) galore. But then there's Sha3nxi's yangrou pao mo (lamb stew with shredded bread); Sha1nxi's vinegary dishes with tomatoes and potatoes and flours made from dried beans, and 'cats' ears' pasta; Shanghai's heavy sweetness, its eel and crab dishes, and snacks such as the hazardous soup-filled xiaolongbao, and panfried shengjian baozi; properly light and subtle Cantonese dishes--familiar names, but completely superior to the standard stodge; the paper-wrapped fish of the Kejia minority, and other Bai and Miao minority dishes; dishes with fruit and coconut and baked in hollow bamboo tubes from Yunnan Province; the hot-and-numbing specialities of Sichuan (Beijing has several restaurants specialising in shuizhu yu, sliced carp swimming in a vat of oily peppers and peppercorns); the uncompromising heat of Hunan and Jiangxi; the delicate Huaiyang dishes (Su Dongpo pork, West Lake carp, Beggar's Chicken, and much more); Mongolian and Sichuan hotpots, and still more. Precious little of any of this can be found overseas, and we've really hardly started. The reason why the food wasn't found to be different is because different dishes weren't tried, or weren't tried in the right places. (If you want your Sichuan dishes adulterated, just order them in a Cantonese restaurant: instant gongbao jiding--the expat's standard Sichuan dish--but without a pepper in sight.) And it helps to pay real prices: Y35 for a meal, not $35. Peter N-H |
Much ado about nothing, me thinks.
This might be heresy here, but I actually think that the best and most authentic international cusine is found in the US. In other words, the best and most authentic of French/Italian/Chinese/Thai cuisine, etc. is found in the US. Many natives of these international locales agree with me. However, in general most "sophisticated travellers" from the US (and other 1st World) who feel the need to "get jiggy" with the local indigenous populations say that I am blasphemous. Okay, I am ready to be pilloried :D M8 |
I don't know a lot about Chinese food, but as someone who has lived in France, worked in the gourmet food business there and who has eaten at lots of French restaurants in France and what passes for French in the U.S, IMHO the "French" in the US is not very French. And authentic French food in France is really a LOT better (and different). For example, it is very difficult to get a good selection in a cheese course in the U.S., if a cheese curse is even offered. And, if you think US "Italian" is authentic, better take a trip to Italy.
On the other heand, often Mexican food in California is better than the same across the border. Back on topic, the Chinese food I ate recently in Beijing, when I went down the hutongs and ate with the locals was not at all like the food in the fancy tourist places. And it was more like less than two dollars for dinner for two. And, it was very yummy (still don't know what a lot of it was), but some of it was very weird in texture and taste. |
Originally Posted by biggestbopper
I don't know a lot about Chinese food, but as someone who has lived in France, worked in the gourmet food business there and who has eaten at lots of French restaurants in France and what passes for French in the U.S, IMHO the "French" in the US is not very French. And authentic French food in France is really a LOT better (and different). For example, it is very difficult to get a good selection in a cheese course in the U.S., if a cheese curse is even offered. And, if you think US "Italian" is authentic, better take a trip to Italy.
On the other heand, often Mexican food in California is better than the same across the border. Back on topic, the Chinese food I ate recently in Beijing, when I went down the hutongs and ate with the locals was not at all like the food in the fancy tourist places. And it was more like less than two dollars for dinner for two. And, it was very yummy (still don't know what a lot of it was), but some of it was very weird in texture and taste. Sure I could go to a food stall in Jakarta, and the food would not be at all like it is in a fine Jakarta restuarant. However, that doesn't make the fine Jakarta restaurant touristy or Westernized and therefore not authentic, just because they aren't serving the slop on the streets. As an example, I was in Mexico City a few years back and heard some Gringos talking about how great the "authentic" Mexican food was that they were eating at the food stalls as opposed to the "tourist" restaurants, which in reality are just upscale restaurants serving fine cuisine. A few days later in the newspapers a scandal broke out that many of the food stalls were using horse meat instead of beef. LMAO! :D Yeppers, that's "authentic." M8 |
I think it's good to start cautiously and then work your way towards a wider range of dishes. I still find some vegetarian dumpling fillings quite unpalatable, to name an example, while even the fiercest Sichuan dishes are no problem after several years in Korea. ;) Generally, when I've had home cooking ( as at family dinners ) tbere might be duck's feet ( marinated or fried ), spinach and egg, seaweed in some form, fatty beef, 1-2 more veggie dishes and a soup to finish. And of course rice.
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Originally Posted by mosburger
And of course rice.
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Originally Posted by Peter N-H
Just as 'I speak Chinese' doesn't tell you very much (there are six different mutually unintelligible Chinese languages and endless dialects of them), neither does the expression 'Chinese food' make much sense.
There are several major cooking schools, and host of minor variations. Most of these are almost entirely unknown to the West. There's probably no town in China without its own speciality dish. The menus of the majority of Chinese restaurants overseas are adulterated versions of Cantonese dishes, sweetened and made heavier and far less subtle for Western palates, and with a few greatest hits from other cuisines thrown in, but also adjusted by the tastebuds of the Cantonese. Dishes are also made worse by the same impetus that drives the adulteration of dishes in tour group restaurants--the substitution of cheaper ingredients for more expensive ones. Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the sweet-and-sour pork dish consisting of a tiny cube of pork in a squash ball-sized globe of dough. After a period in China, run-of-the-mill Chinese food like this overseas becomes almost inedible. But the original posting a little hard to understand. On the one hand it's claimed that the food away from tour group restaurants isn't much different, but that's compared to relatively expensive restaurants in Beijing and Shanghai that partly target the expat market. But then ordinary restaurants are mentioned, and Sichuan dishes in particular, and suddenly the food is different after all, although it's admitted that the author doesn't even know commonplaces of Chinatowns world wide, such as dim sum. Perhaps the surprise is that everything doesn't seem strange. But not even authentic Beijing and Shanghai restaurants can begin to represent the totality and variety of Chinese food, although reliable specialist regional restaurants can be found in both cities. Instead of visiting restaurants with menus of the usual generalities, such as Xiao Wang, proper Beijing cuisine should have been tried, perhaps at a 'lao Beijing' style restaurant, although there are fewer of those than there used to be, for Beijing classics such as jinjiang rou si, zha qiezi (pork between two slices of aubergine and deep fried), a wide variety of fried and baked snacks, and musky, salty dishes dominated by lamb and pork, noodles (ah--'clanging dish noodles'), and soya beans, not to mention jiaozi (dumplings) galore. But then there's Sha3nxi's yangrou pao mo (lamb stew with shredded bread); Sha1nxi's vinegary dishes with tomatoes and potatoes and flours made from dried beans, and 'cats' ears' pasta; Shanghai's heavy sweetness, its eel and crab dishes, and snacks such as the hazardous soup-filled xiaolongbao, and panfried shengjian baozi; properly light and subtle Cantonese dishes--familiar names, but completely superior to the standard stodge; the paper-wrapped fish of the Kejia minority, and other Bai and Miao minority dishes; dishes with fruit and coconut and baked in hollow bamboo tubes from Yunnan Province; the hot-and-numbing specialities of Sichuan (Beijing has several restaurants specialising in shuizhu yu, sliced carp swimming in a vat of oily peppers and peppercorns); the uncompromising heat of Hunan and Jiangxi; the delicate Huaiyang dishes (Su Dongpo pork, West Lake carp, Beggar's Chicken, and much more); Mongolian and Sichuan hotpots, and still more. Precious little of any of this can be found overseas, and we've really hardly started. The reason why the food wasn't found to be different is because different dishes weren't tried, or weren't tried in the right places. (If you want your Sichuan dishes adulterated, just order them in a Cantonese restaurant: instant gongbao jiding--the expat's standard Sichuan dish--but without a pepper in sight.) And it helps to pay real prices: Y35 for a meal, not $35. Peter N-H My point is that some mythical line between "authentic" and "Westernized" Chinese food does not really exist. Anyone who has eaten in the Chinatowns of any US city -- or even at the more sophisticated Chinese restaurants in suburbia -- has probably had "authentic" Chinese food. The dumplings in San Francisco are not "foreign" to the dumplings in Shanghai. It is variations of the same thing (and, yes, I have had plenty of dim sum before: not surprising it's probably best overall in Hong Kong, but it's probably not better in Shanghai than it is in NYC). One certainly can be served many different things in China than what is served in Chinese restaurants abroad. This is hardly surprising: an "American-style" restaurant in France is probably not going to have the best gumbo you've ever tasted, do a Wisconsin fish boil or make a mean beef on weck. But they'll likely have decent onion rings and serve you a nice cheeseburger. :) Not surprisingly, the more upscale restaurants in China have food more familiar to the Western palate (I assume the same is true with American cuisine -- other than American icons like cheeseburgers, foreigners are less likely to recognize some of the things that come out of our "greasy spoons"). And I think there's a good reason for that: countries tend to export the things that foreigners want to buy! It is hardly surprising that the "best" restaurants in China serve these things. Now you can argue that these restaurants somehow cater to ex-pats and such, but in places like Xiao Wang or Shanghai Uncle, I never saw a single Western diner during my visits. Chinese food certainly becomes less familiar in China when you go "down scale." Like many, you glorify such "authentic" dishes such as yangrou pao mo. I had it, it was OK, certainly good value for money (maybe I paid 15 yuan for lunch, I can't remember exactly), but if somebody had only a couple of weeks in China, would I recommend they eat it? Only for the atmosphere of eating with the locals. After that, I'd send them to Shanghai Uncle. Other "authentic" dishes you mention, like Dongpo rou pork (at least the type they serve in Hangzhou) is actually pretty terrible (assuming you're not used to eating pure fat), and is unlikely to find a following overseas. Again, I'd list it in the "try it once" category. Beggar's chicken -- which is not a cheap dish whatsoever -- is significantly better than that, but I confess the "show" which accompanies the dish is probably better than its actual taste. So, yes, if your digestive system can take it, you can revel in trying plenty of foods in China that you will never see abroad. At the end of the day, however, I think most visitors will opt for meals that are Chinese but not so different from what they have seen before in high-quality Chinese restaurants. I would suggest such dishes are "authentic." The BETTER authentic ones. |
I don't care whether a meal passes some authenticity test, but I very much care that the meal should pass an "Is it good?" test.
Removing for the moment the ambience and service of an eatery, the essential elemants of the food served are the quality of ingredients and the skill of the chef and staff. In my experience, the quality (and very especially the freshness) of ingredients is almost always very high in Hong Kong and what little of China that I've seen. I don't know of any Asian restaurant that I've been to in the US where the ingredients are as fresh as in HK/China -- for example, where the prawns are brought to the table while still alive and swimming, then tossed into a boiling broth. |
Originally Posted by iahphx
As is typical of your postings, Peter, your tone is a bit condescending, but I'll try to reply without similar emotion.
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Originally Posted by Martinis at 8
Upscale is Upscale, though many wish to equivilate Upscale with Touristy. The best French and Italian restaurants in NYC, San Francisco, and other large metropolitan areas in the US will rival any of those restaurants found in France or Italy. This is largely due to the fact that a lot of the fine chefs in Europe come to the US, and in many cases make the food fare better, much-much better.
As a French gentleman I knew who worked at one of California's most famous French restaurants told me once when I asked how he thought his place would fare if it were in France: "We would close within a week." I just ate at Pierre Gaugniere's in Tokyo. IMHO: It was very good, but the real thing in France is much better. |
Originally Posted by iahphx
but in places like Xiao Wang or Shanghai Uncle, I never saw a single Western diner during my visits.
to the poster that mentioned freshness of ingredients, i couldn't agree more that this is important. however, in general, i've found that chinese restaurants in socal and san francisco use much higher quality ingredients than their typical counterparts in beijing, let alone some of the secondary markets in which i often find myself (ningbo comes to mind off the top of my head). hk is a different story; i've been to many restaurants down there that i've considered top shelf. the same goes for taiwan. as an aside, of the 55 cities i've visited in china, sanya tops my list for quality local food. |
Originally Posted by moondog
while i can't comment on shanghai uncle because i don't go there very often, but i am quite familiar with the guanghua rd xiaowangfu. during lunch, i'd dare say it's one of the whitest restaurants in beijing and dinner isn't all that different.
Not sure why there weren't any other foreigners there. The neighborhood is certainly foreigner-friendly (luxe hotels, embassies, etc.). And, as you know, the food is "accessible" (photo menu, too). Maybe they can't find the place -- it is sort of hidden in the park. |
Originally Posted by biggestbopper
As a French gentleman I knew who worked at one of California's most famous French restaurants told me once when I asked how he thought his place would fare if it were in France: "We would close within a week."
I just ate at Pierre Gaugniere's in Tokyo. IMHO: It was very good, but the real thing in France is much better. I'm sure there are many more Chinese restaurants in the US than French restaurants. Sure, most of them are bad, but I would have a much easier time finding "authentic" Chinese food in America than I would "authentic" French food. And it would also be a heck of a lot more affordable! |
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