My best China food experiences in Beijing were found by going down various of the the remaining hutongs, picking out a restaurant by chance (if filled with hutong residents that was a plus), going in, sitting down, and, after being presented with the chinese menu (if there was a menu), ignoring it (couldn't read it anyway) and pointing at dishes on other tables. What I ate, I don't really know, but boy was it good.

Also, you will meet many locals this way who will buy you beer and tell you (I assume) jokes in Chinese.

And, your bill will be somewhere around $2-4 for a meal for two.

Beijing and Shanghai aren't London and Paris -- I don't think ANY restaurant could survive catering to foreign tourists. Ex-pats, maybe -- at least as a percentage of the clientele. If you leave the grounds of your hotel, the odds are at least 99% that the restaurant "will be frequented by the locals."

So then the question becomes whether you want to go "down-market" or "up-market." Lots of professional travel writers glorify the down-market experiecne -- as do others who enjoy a good hole-in-the-wall experience. I myself like such "authentic" places. But, truth be told, that's not the best food in China. Nor should it be -- to some extent, you get what you pay for. Since China is one of the few countries in the world where anyone who can afford to visit can afford to eat in its "best" restaurants, I urge you worry less about finding obscure restaurants and more about finding good ones.

I'd think about it this way: if you were travelling to Paris for a week and could easily afford to eat ANYWHERE, would you generally eat where workmen ate their simple lunches, or the culinary palaces?

I'd opt for the palaces myself, but others would no doubt extol the workingman's food.

If you read through these past threads, you'll see that Shanghai and Beijing have maybe two or three "over-rated" expensive restaurants that live off their reputations. If you avoid these, you'll be more than fine.

No, it doesn't. There's a vast range of middle-market options which though you may not have tried them still exist, as was pointed out very clearly in an earlier post:

"There are innumerable mid-price restaurants in bigger cities (less than, and often well less than, half that price), even chains, specialising in particular regional cuisines, which have pleasantly designed modern interiors harping upon some relevant local theme, and serving authentic dishes from that area. These are not hard to find, and there are two particularly well-known chains of Sichuan and Kejia cai, and a lesser one of Guangxi dishes, that occur to me just off the top of my head. No surprising ingredients (unless you really want them), but not much that you'll have ever tried in the West."

I must say I read (and know personally) a large number of professional travel writers many of whom make China their speciality, and I hadn't noticed this. What they glorify is good food at every level. You've accused me of "glorifying" downmarket dishes once on this thread and your error has already been pointed out.

But your earlier postings seem dedicated to suggesting that you don't like "down-market" places, and that you don't like "authentic" food. You're even stating right here that it's not the best food in China, although as you've already made abundantly evident, but don't like having it pointed out to you, you don't actually have even remotely sufficient experience to know what you're talking about. I'm aware you hate being contradicted, but no insult is intended. This merely seems to be a matter of fact, and if you have the right to make sweeping generalizations then equally others have the right to point out how ill-founded these are, and to save others from being led away from excellent and enjoyable meals in pleasant surroundings for a fraction of the figures you quote.

And it has already been pointed out to you on this thread that "authentic" is not the same as "down-market". There's plenty of authentic food at every price level.

Nor is there any equivalence whatsoever between "authentic" and "obscure" and it is absolutely absurd to say so. Practically every other shop front in China is a restaurant that isn't up-market. Many middle-market restaurants are famous across China, and many are lit up like Christmas trees, and hardly difficult to find. On the other hand many relatively down-market restaurants are cosy, comfortable, cheap, and cheerful.

I wouldn't think about it this way at all, since you are being offered what is obviously a false dichotomy. Presumably you wouldn't in the first place be assuming those were the only options in Paris, and that would be because you'd be both applying common sense and actually opening your eyes.

Doubtless you'd find a prix fixe menu with three or four courses with a glass or carafe of wine in one of the very many bistros offering such fare, and be very happy with both it and the modest price. If you suggested to the waiter that this was no better than a working man's sandwich au jambon he'd probably throw you out. And quite right, too.

Here are just a few randomly chosen suggestions for Mary which simply make the points given above. There's nothing really down-market here, yet plenty of authentic and perfectly edible dishes, and plenty of locals eating, too, and prices well below the US$35 (a vast amount for China) suggested in an earlier post in this thread as being cheap. But giving these middle-market examples doesn't mean that the more genuinely down-market should be avoided.


SHANGHAI:

Lao Zhan
Old Station
Caoxi Bei Lu 201
Xuhui
(021) 6427 2233
Under ¥100 for two (thats under US$13, but still pricey by Chinese standards)

Well-executed Shanghai classics at budget prices in a choice of highly unusual settings: the high-ceilinged halls of a former French monastery, or two connected luxury railway carriages, one formerly used by the Dowager Empress Cixi, and the other by Song Qingling.


1931
Maoming Nan Lu 112
Luwan
(021) 6472 5264
Around ¥150 or so for two.

Eating at this cosy little restaurant is like being in a 1930s private house, the walls hung with advertising and photographs from the period. Few of the dishes are obviously Shanghainese, although all are light and pleasant, and excellent value for money.


1221
Yan’an Xi Lu 1221
Changning
(021) 6213 6585
¥150-200 for two

1221 serves a Canton-influenced and less oily version of Shanghainese dishes including a refreshing pork and papaya soup, a garlicky string beans and a spicy boiled beef with warm sesame loaf. Away from the centre of town but worth the effort.

Bao Luo
Paul’s
Fumin Lu 271
Jing’an
(021) 6279 2827
www.baoluojiulou.com
¥150-200 for two.

A favourite of local gourmets (plus renowned chef Jean-Georges Vongerichten), Bao Luo is justifiably acclaimed for cheap and classic Shanghainese dishes, like divinely sweet stir-fried eggplant in pancakes.

BEIJING

Mian Ku
Noodle Loft
Baiziwan Lu 18 (SOHO New Town)
Chaoyang
(010) 6774 9950
Under ¥100 for two

A surprisingly sleek, modern restaurant dishing up regional Shanxi dishes with tidy presentation and a modern twist. Excellent snacks and cold starters such as the salty mashed pumpkin and fungus and caraway salad complement fresh noodle dishes and main courses. Excellent value.

Beijing Dadong Kaoyadian
Beijing Roast Duck Restaurant
Building 3, Tuanjiehu Beikou, Dong San Huan
Chaoyang
(010) 6582 2892
Under ¥100 for two

There’s arguably no finer Beijing duck than that served here—full-flavoured and with just the right balance between tender meat and crispy skin. Far less famous than the Quanjude establishments dotting Beijing, it nevertheless surpasses its rival on every level, including price.

Fu Jia Lou
Dong Si Shi Tiao 23
Dong Cheng
(010) 8403 7831
Under ¥100 for two

One of the best survivors from now-passed craze for old-style Beijing restaurants, Fu Jia Lou recreates the pre-1949 dining experience: general bustle, shouting waiters, and pungent, sour Beijing dishes that will redefine your idea of Chinese food.

Kong Yiji
Desheng Men Nei Dajie, on the Hou Hai shore
Xi Cheng
(010) 6618 4917/4915
¥150-200 for two

Perpetually packed with local epicures, this is simply among the best two or three Chinese restaurants of any style in the city. There’s an enormous range of delicate dishes from the Yangtze River delta and the atmosphere is pure Chinese-style culinary joy.

I hope you enjoy these. Any half-decent guide book will provide dozens of other choices, as will the free ex-pat produced what's-on magazines to be found in the lobbies of hotels, foreigner-haunted cafes, etc.

Peter N-H

Your list of restaurants is very helpful, Peter. Thank you.

Your attitude of infinite superiority is not, however. Most of us do not have the entire day to debate you. Nor would we want to.

I personally cannot afford to eat at some of these "best" restaurants in shanghai that charge between $1,000-2,500 per head for the Chinese New Year banquet.

Yeah, but like Peter's posts, you're setting up a strawman to knock down.

The typical tourist (and I'm not talking about the Sinophile who can devote his life to studying China -- just the man or woman who has a couple of weeks worth of vacation to spend) isn't likely to run into $1000 banquets. Dining in China is extremely inexpensive. The typical visitor can afford to eat anywhere he/she pleases, and would be wise to sample an array of dining experiences. My recommendation to not be "afraid" of the high end is because Westerners (OK, Americans with a currently devalued currency) don't generally get to experience this perk overseas. I personally would suggest doing it while you can, because prices will inevitably rise in China due to the revaluation of the Yuan and the growth of wealth in that country.

And those $1000 banquets certainly suggest the wealth is already growing. :)

Peter: Thank you so much. That is precisely the kind of information I am lookiing for. We are eager to sample "the working man's" food as well as the up-market as well. The whole experience for us is to see what the average joe dines on. I am very appreciative of the specific restaurants you offered.

Please, fellow FTers', one of the great pleasures of FT is the very high level of civility. Let's keep it up. Play nice kids! :)

by the way, I wish I had had Peter's list last month when I was in Shanghai. ^

Part of the point of the posting was that these aren't the restaurants that "average joe" dines in, but somewhere in the middle--affordable for many Shanghainese and Beijingers, but not on a daily basis.

"Average joe" restaurants, where you can eat well for ¥20-30 (or, in some cases with simple dishes and snacks, ¥3-5) are innumerable.

But far more comprehensive lists are available in some guide books (although in others the selections are decidedly ho-hum, admittedly), and for free in magazines such as Shanghai City Talk, that's Shanghai, City Weekend etc., found in hotel lobbies and foreigner-haunted bars, as well as on some of these publications' websites. These restaurants are hardly well-kept secrets, and the information really is pretty easily available. There's no need to wait for lists from me, and the information from some of these other sources will undoubtedly be more up to date.

Peter N-H

Indeed, I recall seeing at least one of these places listed by the, um, Luxury Link folks.

http://www.luxurylink.com/portfolio/...d=112073&poi=1

So it does seem odd, doesn't it, to suggest that such places don't exist, and that the only alternative to spending US$35 or upwards is to eat unappealing or indigestible food in obscure places, only 'glorified' by specialists?

Or is it now being suggested although US$35 is cheap, under $13 per person is luxury?

Or does this indeed demonstrate that after all decent, approachable dishes, including many largely or entirely unavailable in West, or bearing little resemblance to and often superior to Chinese food as served in most Chinese restaurants in the West, can very easily be found and enjoyed in pleasant surroundings for very modest prices, and even by those on their first trips to China. And the information on these places is not difficult to come by.

Peter N-H

It's pretty clear to me even without going to China that there's a lot to experience beyond the familiar menu of most American Chinese restaurants. If you go to one of the few restaurants that has the whole menu in English instead of printing the specials only in Chinese (Lao Sze Chuan in Chicago's Chinatown is one), you may find countless new dishes you've never tried before. My few lucky trips to New York and San Francisco's Chinatowns with a Chinese-speaking friend, and home-cooked meals made by a Taiwanese friend's mother, introduced me to all kinds of wonderful treats that I've never been able to find on my own. Hopefully I'll get a chance to make use of Peter's list in the future.

For a guy who loves to complain about putting words in people's mouths, you seem to be a master of it.

Of course you can eat for less than $35 for two in China. As I said at the very beginning of this thread, there are plenty of options to do so, and visitors to China should certainly try some of these resturants. However, many of the down-scale or "moderate" restaurants -- including several that you include in your guidebooks -- are simply not as good IN MY OPINION as slightly more expensive restaurants (a point again made in the very first post here). And that's simply on food quality (hardly shocking, of course), and without EVEN having to deal with certain other significant "issues" going "down-market." Such problems include: 1) the lack of English menus and English speaking staff, making even the simplest of requests a crap shoot -- yet alone being able to order dishes that appeal to you (fun the first couple of times, less fun after awhile); 2) significant issues of hygiene (I don't think that even you'd challenge me on the obvious observation that more upscale restaurants in China have more upscale hygiene, and risking your health for a slightly more "authentic" dining experience is a questionable decision; 3) physically locating such restaurants, even if you have an address, if you do not speak or read Chinese; 4) the likely lack of cold beverages in inexpensive and moderate-priced restaurants (bad for those who like cold beer, or a cold beverage in summer).

Before you hijacked this thread to again demonstrate your superiority in all matters related to travel in China, the point of it was to observe that "authentic" Chinese food was quite approachable to Western palates and that, in my opinion, the more upscale meals were more enjoyable and represented better value. You may have a different view -- I'm not sure since you seem to like to argue for argument's sake -- but that's my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N-H
So it does seem odd, doesn't it, to suggest that such places don't exist, and that the only alternative to spending US$35 or upwards is to eat unappealing or indigestible food in obscure places, only 'glorified' by specialists?


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ :D

The arguments you've set out have been confused since the very first posting, since when you've contradicted yourself on more than one occasion (and you might want to check the correct use of the expression 'straw man', too), so perhaps it's not surprising if you've lost track.

These are your own words:

iahphx: 'So then the question becomes whether you want to go "down-market" or "up-market."' This appears to state that the option of "middle-market" doesn't exist. If it did, there would be three choices, not two.

iahphx: "So, yes, if your digestive system can take it, you can revel in trying plenty of foods in China that you will never see abroad." This appears to state that unfamiliar (and this was in the context of the less than US$35 restaurants) is by definition less digestible and less appealing, but this is not in fact the case.

iahpx: " Like many, you glorify such "authentic" dishes such as yangrou pao mo," and "Lots of professional travel writers glorify the down-market experiecne -- as do others who enjoy a good hole-in-the-wall experience." So you have indeed claimed that these down-market experiences have indeed been glorified, although they haven't here.

iahphx: "Since China is one of the few countries in the world where anyone who can afford to visit can afford to eat in its "best" restaurants, I urge you worry less about finding obscure restaurants and more about finding good ones." So those restaurants not amongst the best, already defined as the more up-market ones, are obscure, although many are nothing of the kind.

Of course if you mean your opinion has now changed on these matters, all well and good.

Nor has anyone said that you said they couldn't. What you've said or implied (and are going on to say again), and what is being denied, is that there's little pleasure to be had below that (really rather monstrous for China) figure.

This is all far closer to being something that can be agreed with (essentially the idea that some cheaper restaurants are not as good as some more expensive ones--it would be odd if things were otherwise) but then that's because this is a far more modest and less sweeping set of claims than has been made elsewhere.

Nevertheless the point must be made again that by your own admission you simply haven't had enough exprience to make these claims, which you've generalised to China from a very limited set of big city examples, apparently sticking largely to restaurants that provide you with no data on the down-market and middle-market (whose existence you ignored completely before), and to dishes that you already know please you.

Most of China, and most of its cuisine, is completely unknown to you, and dropping into a few up-market restaurants in a few of its bigger cities is never going to inform you or changed your opinion, especially since you've already defined good as being what you like.

It would be a shame, however, if others here didn't understand that there's a vast range of delightful options open to them if they just to a little research, or take their courage into their own hands to try something a little new. There is in fact plenty of excellent food outside the range of dishes familiar to Westerners, in traditions unknown to them, and for very modest prices indeed, well or way below those quoted.

Simple methods for successful ordering this have already been given on this thread, and require only a little bit of gumption. Naturally ordering isn't as easy as if there's a common language, but it's only difficult if you choose to make it so. Possibly all of the middle market restaurants I mentioned have English on their menus, as is typical in the largest cities. Outside of those, upmarket restaurants won't have English at all. What then? Not that any of this argument has anything to do with the original sweeping claims about eating in China.

Best to stay at home, perhaps, if it's all too difficult.

This false dichotomy has already been tackled. There is no relationship between cheapness and authenticity. There is authenticity at every price range.

There are very few kitchens in China whose interiors you would want to see (I've seen rather a lot of them), and the key everywhere and right down to street stall level is to order hot, freshly cooked food. Only in the most upmarket places, principally in foreign-run establishments, should cold dishes by tried by any but those with the most acclimatized local stomachs. But that still leaves plenty of choice of course, not that this has anything to do with the original sweeping claims about eating in China.

There are in general more reports of illness amongst tour group members than amongst independent travellers. But really, if this is the attitude it's probably better to stay at home than come to grubby little China.

If you're determined at all costs to make this difficult, of course it will be difficult. But with these attitudes again it's unsurprising that not much knowledge has been gained. The characters for restaurant names are given in the better guide books and in the expat magazines. Where not, the receptionist at your hotel can be asked to write the characters for the street name down and show this to the taxi driver. Only a little common sense is needed, and, of course, these arguments apply equally to finding up-market restaurants, not that this has anything to do with the original sweeping claims about eating in China.

If it's all so hard, best just to stay in the hotel and not venture out, although it will certainly be hard to get to know China's rich and varied cuisine better with that approach.

NO COLD BEER! OH MY GOD! What are they thinking of? Forget eating a delicious meal. Best stay at home.

But almost all moderate-priced restaurants all have cold beer, and at rock-bottom places it varies, although often not, not that this has anything to do with the original sweeping claims about eating in China.

No one has hijacked anything, but simply addressed the arguments set out, an approach you might also consider, if you don't mind my saying so. The point of replying to your postings, especially when they address me individually (so if I reply you can hardly complain) is to address sweeping and inaccurate observations based on very limited experience so that others, because this is not a private conversation, are not misled. If you prefer never to have your claims challenged it would be best not to put them on a public message board where others have equal right to comment, whether you like those comments or not.

This is an entirely inadequate gloss on what you have in fact been saying, and rather contrary to some of it. But I'm happy to agree.

The better value angle is a new claim, highly questionable, and once again not necessarily applicable to the whole of China. In general the opposite is true.

Peter N-H