Yikes! :eek: I wouldn't go that far, but I get your point.

M8

This is a tautology, surely?

But one of the points of the reply was to show that you apparently don't have the range of experience (I mean this in the nicest possible way) on which to base this comment, either in your choice of restaurants or your choice of dishes, or in an attitude that rejects one of the greatest Chinese cooking schools (many would argue that several Sichuan dishes occupy the summit of Chinese cooking) and wants to alter its dishes--"Not too spicy please, waiter."

It's precisely this attitude, responded to by restaurants overseas wishing to improve their business, that creates the very real line between "authentic" and "Westernized" Chinese foods amongst the rather limited list of dishes that can be found in both places. Although there are some good, authentic, and usually expensive places, the overwhelming majority of restaurants are serving dumbed-down or adulterated meals, and the overwhelming majority of Chinese dishes simply cannot be found overseas.

Broader experience, of the kind largely unavailable in the West, would tell you that not all Sichuan dishes are fierily hot (the cuisine actually claims 23 distinct types of flavours), and that even in good hot Sichuan cooking (unlike Hunan and Jiangxi dishes of which--here's that line again--you are probably entirely unaware) a balance is usually made between hotness and 'numbness', although this varies from region to region.

Has probably had some authentic dishes, yes. There are good "authentic" dumplings and poor "authentic" dumplings, and both are certainly widely available in Chinatowns. But this doesn't by itself make the case, does it, especially when otherwise experience is so widely to the contrary? I take visitors to have dim sum all the time, but much of the better Chinese cooking when you can find it is away from Chinatown, since restaurants there are right in the middle of tourist heartland, and often behave accordingly.

(I had the misfortune to be invited to a banquet catered by a Chinatown restaurant a couple of months ago, and it was far and away the worst Chinese meal I've ever had.)

You go on to say that this is not surprising, and I would entirely agree. Er...but then doesn't that automatically mean that Chinese food in China is different from Chinese food overseas (if you get out of the tourist restaurants and the expat places at eight times local prices and go and find it)?

Which is precisely the point being made to you and that you are therefore gathering precious little data in those restaurants to support your assertion that there's little difference in food in China and out.

So now, again, there is a difference.

Please (in the nicest possible way) don't put words into my mouth. I made an extremely limited list of cuisines and dishes that are less commonly, rarely, or never seen overseas. I quite like yangrou paomo, which is on the same culinary scale as burgers, although perhaps more interesting. Haute cuisine it isn't, but it is different from Chinese food in the West (most of which isn't haute cuisine either.) Actually Xi'an's rou jia mou, chopped pork in a bun, also not generally seen overseas, is sometimes referred to as China's hamburger.

Sorry (very sorry), but this isn't to the point, is it? It's a dish that's different from Chinese food commonly encountered in the West and providing just one of innumerable points of difference. Personally I would recommend it as a peculiarly local experience to those visiting Xi'an, partly because it's one that's very approachable for palates that prefer the bland, and because you control the mix of ingredients yourself.

As with the application of "authentic" to the yangrou paomo above, you seem to accepting entirely that there is a difference between Chinese food overseas and Chinese food in China.

But you also go on to suggest that these "authentic" dishes, being different from those commonly available overseas (and thereby contradicting your initial argument), are difficult to digest. This suggestion only demonstrates again a complete lack of sufficient experience to make the assertion you are making (and changing back and forth about), since there is no link at all. There are plenty of, uncomplicated, unchallenging, utterly straightforward, easily digestible and delightful dishes in China almost or entirely unknown overseas. You apparently just haven't ventured out to find them. Equally, there are dishes widely available in Chinatowns which many would find difficult. Chicken feet anyone? There's no link between availability and appeal to a conservative Western palate.

It's a Hangzhou specialty--Su Dongpo, one of China's most famous poets, was an official there. If you had it in Hangzhou away from tourist restaurants, you're unlikely to find it more authentic anywhere else.

So again, there's a difference between China and overseas? And your preference for non-fatty meat would mean that if this dish did appear overseas it would have to be done differently to suit you?

But in fact other (pseudo-)Cantonese dishes made with fei rou fatty pork, can easily be found in Chinatowns, so apparently there is a following. Although many Chinese value the fattiness especially in certain dishes, it's also worth noting that in the West that's a cheap cut, which makes it appealing to restaurants, in the same way (as Moondog mentioned) that meat and especially chicken often comes on the bone. It's cheaper to serve it that way. (There are also dishes everywhere in China that serve it off the bone, Moondog--look for dishes with the key characters 'ding' (nuggets), 'pian' (slices), 'si' (shreds), rather than 'kuair' (pieces).)

But again, that's not to the point of the argument is it? And obviously there are others who like it.

Beggar's chicken I do like. But I've never had it with a show. Were you in a tourist restaurant again? (I only very humbly ask for information.)

This is a completely different claim from the original one, isn't it? But sadly, if perhaps understandably, likely true in general.

But one would hope that some would read their guide book descriptions of specialist local dishes and where to find them and go out and try something new. Chance are, too, that if they order something they expect to be familiar, such as 'sweet and sour pork', and do so in restaurants off the tourist merry-go-round, they are likely to find it very different from what they expect, and rather better.

This is circular and self-fulfilling, isn't it? "The dishes that suit my taste are the best ones and the ones I'll go to look for in China." No wonder the trip resulted in almost complete ignorance of what China can offer.

Let's sum up the reality of the situation:

While there are some authentic dishes at high-end Chinese restaurants, and simpler authentic dishes at cheaper Chinese restaurants in the West, by and large the Chinese food available overseas varies from uninspiring to appalling, for reasons already discussed.

There's no such thing as "Chinese" food, since China is a vast country with a near-infinite variety of dishes belonging to several major and minor schools. The nearest you'll find to the Western Chinese menu in China is at restaurants serving jiachang cai, 'homestyle' or 'everyday' or 'commonplace' dishes. No claims of authenticity, especially where non-local dishes are included, but largely different from Chinese food in the West, all the same.

The typically Cantonese chefs even in better Chinese restaurants overseas don't generally do much of a job of the occasional classics from other cooking schools that are commonly found on "Chinese" restaurant menus. But ordering a Cantonese dish from a cook in Chengdu will have the same effect--as everywhere in China as well as outside it, the dishes tend to be adapted for local tastes, and if visiting a self-proclaimed Chuan cai (Sichuan) restaurant in Guangdong, you also need to ask where the chef is from. If he's local, it's usually best to go somewhere else. In general, wherever you are, it's best to ask what the local specialities are, and try those.

Eating Chinese food is one of the principal pleasures of travelling in China. For the independent traveller there are occasional bad experiences, but to a large extent from the simplest level upwards, it's hard to find a bad meal. You are more likely to do so at the kick-back restaurants at which tour groups get dumped, and you may find all kinds of compromises at extravagant $35 restaurants aimed at certain markets. There are innumerable mid-price restaurants in bigger cities (less than, and often well less than, half that price), even chains, specialising in particular regional cuisines, which have pleasantly designed modern interiors harping upon some relevant local theme, and serving authentic dishes from that area. These are not hard to find, and there are two particularly well-known chains of Sichuan and Kejia cai, and a lesser one of Guangxi dishes, that occur to me just off the top of my head. No surprising ingredients (unless you really want them), but not much that you'll have ever tried in the West.

But to get at the full range of options it's necessary not only to get out of the usual culprit restaurants, but off the usual Beijing-Shanghai-Guilin tourist conga line. China, a vast and varied place, is in no way represented by journeys simply to these cities.

In any town the menu usually opens with a list of local specialities, some of which have become national classics (Shaoxing's chicken in yellow wine, for instance), and some of which have remained more or less local, but which Chinese travel to try. Some of them, to be sure, will be of limited appeal. But others are merely taking advantage of local ingredients (mushrooms, crabs, certain spices, game birds, etc.). Either way, there are endless excellent novelties to be found everywhere, alongside a long list of standards, although many of these will appear unfamiliar either because they are being prepared with local preference for vinegary, spicy, sour, fruity, or other flavours in mind, or just because when done properly they are rather different from the adulterated versions commonly available overseas.

Ritan Park is in Guanghua Lu, by the way. Unless there's a recently opened sub-branch Moondog's 'one of the whitest in Beijing' restaurant (although there are other branches) is the same as your one "hidden" in the heart of embassy territory and close to major hotels and the business district.

Having spend only a little time in Hainan, I'd be interested to hear what the "authentic" dishes of Sanya were, and whether they were digestible or not.

Peter N-H

Most Europeans can handle tripe (think Roman cuisine and the bouchons of Lyon are Germans certainly used to (pickled) pig trotters) and the exotic (as long as it's not "pets"). Just a matter of how it's prepared.

This is a tautology, surely?

Er... no.

After spending a year eating and cooking in mainly in Taiwan, I've found that many times it isn't the cooking that is different, but instead the availability of materials. Many spices/ingredients are simply not sold (or are difficult to find) in the US and the meats/veggies somehow have different textures than in Asia. For some reason I feel the meats in the US are more dense.

Perhaps its because of my exposure at a young age to 'real' Spanish food that I've never found any Japanese food to be that strange - and I've eaten pickled entrails, small fishes that seemed like nothing more than a crispy and bone ridden shell for a cache of termite eggs, all kinds of dried sea flesh and egg pouches, gelatinous beans and root vegetables with threads that extend for metres, musty pickles that I've picked out myself from a jar of fetid ricebran that's been fermenting for generations, etc, etc, etc... Believe me, when you stay with an 86 year old woman in a home she's lived and worked in for well over 60 years, you get to taste authentic Japanese food. Heck, she even makes preserves and pickles from plants she grows in the 30 cm wide 'garden' that surrounds her house - the most delicious yuzu tea I've ever had came from a tree that grows on her balcony... in a flowerpot about 20cms diameter! Even her wasabi is home grown, she grows it on her kitchen windowsill.

The reason I'm saying this is that most of these 'delicacies', or at least commercial variations of them, are easily accessible. I know you're the sort of person who will visit a department store in Japan, or take pleasure in visiting grocery stores in downtown areas.

I wonder, just because of the social structure of Japan, if it isn't much easier to just 'stumble' on the majority of authentic foods of Japan - taking into account the regional variations.

I always got the impression that a different approach would be needed in China... this thread has kind of confirmed this.


As for the best international food being available in the USA... The food I had in Poland recently was incomparable to the Polish I've eaten in New York. Far, far better.

EDIT TO ADD: Just spoke to MrLapLap about this thread. His comment was that most Japanese townies would balk if confronted with many of the regional and rural delights you can get in the countryside. I'm sure this is the same in China. It's certainly true for France & Spain.

I think we're perhaps debating the wrong thing here. Pretty well by definition any 'Chinese' dish a Chinese chef knocks up in a Chinese kitchen is 'authentic' - even though it may be the local version of the dish rather than the original version.

A better question would be what is 'typical' Chinese food. The answer probably being that it's what your 'average' family eats on a 'average' day in an 'average' home or an 'average' restaurant.

How close to typical a visitor gets really depends on where they go and how close to typical they want to get.

The stuff that gets presented to Western tour groups is choosen on the basis of what they will probably like and be familiar with rather than for how typical it is - in the same way Chinese restaurants in the West have menus featuring the stuff that tends to appeal to Westerners. Upscale is also never very typical.

As I said in an earlier post - go to any 'mid level' restaurant with Chinese. You'll be eating typical/authentic food.

One thing that I've found interesting is the roaring success of Taiwanese chain restaurants in mainland cities. Can you find these chains in the US or other overseas locations?

The more upscale of these chains seem to offer fairly high quality food ( at least to my undeveloped palate ) such as soups, dumplings, appetizers etc. and feature nice "Chinese" interior design. Loud, busy and tasty...

With the current "neo-Chinese" trend in the US and Europe, could this concept make it there? Has it been tried?

Yeah, that's what I meant about "strange" food. :)

To a Westerner (or at least an American), you simply don't have that experience in China. While I'm sure there's a ton of Chinese dishes I wouldn't try, the vast majority of dishes are quite "accessible." It's much harder for me to find things to eat in Japan. I've been known to patronize those Western bakeries, and even (gasp) McDonalds from time to time. :) I can't imagine while you'd search out Western food in China, unless you were living there for months.

I'm trying to think of a nice way to reply to your post. But I don't think that's possible. Moderator, is it necessary for us all to be bullied (demeaned if you prefer) by this guy?

This is quite an interesting subject as well. "Western" food was not that different from Chinese and other cuisines before.

In my own culture, a generation ago all people ate was local traditional food, salted or cured fish and meat in winter, almost all parts of a slaughtered animal, lots of pickles during the cold months...

Nowadays, it's all take away pizzas, kebabs and ready-made meals for a large part of the population.

Let's see how long it will take before Chinese youth travelling to Vietnam or Malesia will be disgusted by fresh food while munching on their fatburger. ;)

I recently traveled to China as part of a professional/academic group. Our primary business was in a provincial capital several hours drive from Beijing. Our group, which was made up of Americans of various ethnic backgrounds, was treated as VIPs (!) in this city in which we saw no other western faces the entire time. We were in one of the nicest hotels, and, I believe, were taken to eating establishments that were among the nicest in town. I doubt any non-Chinese tour group has ever visited this (actually quite large) city. We were far off the beaten touristic path.

I would say that the culinary experience was extremely difficult. Part of the problem was that they were trying to "impress" us. We had no say over what was ordered, and, to all of our tastes, the food was not palatable. The main issue was the ingredients, many of which were not familiar. Donkey, ligaments, ducks' feet, various sea creatures, etc. Even the chicken contained elements that were problematic (Is that the aorta?). The amount of food was also huge (typically served on a lazy-Susan), resulting in a lack of hunger, thus making the palatability of these dishes even less. There was very little that was plain, and plain would have been significantly easier. (Please bring us some regular pork!) Vegetables were not considered impressive enough, and a request for rice or noodles seemed to be considered an insult.

Now, I'm a moderately (although not extremely) adventuresome eater, but I had trouble. Others in the party (including my colleague's children), had a very difficult time. Unfortunately, it was diffiult for our party to maintain a sufficient degree of graciousness for their hospitality. I think that we seemed very strange. But, especially with children involved, what could we do?

Following our "official" business, we had several days with a tour leader in Xian and Beijing. The experience in these cities was quite different. We could eat.

I apologize for this post, but it is an honest opinion. While I remain mortified by some of the things that were presented to us to eat, I am even more mortified that, as a guest in China, we were not able to graciously partake in the offered hospitality.

Wow, a really bad break. I guess those much-maligned tour guides are good for something -- keeping the ducks' feet off the menu. :)

Anyone have similar experiences? It seems very unlikely to happen along "the tourist route," but so many places in China get so few Western visitors that I bet others have run into the same situation.

No need to apologise at all. As you say - an honest opinion.

But I do agree with ianphx when he says you had a bad break. I've been in the provincial bits of China for a while, well off the tourist track, and clock about 2 banquets per week. Whilst there is almost invariably something at most banquets that really isn't to my fancy, most of what gets ordered is very edible. And it's near guaranteed that every banquet introduces at least a couple of new dishes to me.

As to chicken, it's a Chinese thing. :D Typically you get the whole chicken. Head, aorta, feet, etc. And it's invariably fresh as well - it was probably clucking around in a cage 20 minutes before it hit the table.