Chinatrvl

No. What mnredfox refers to is the more sneaky version of DCC.
1. Your receipt will show in big bold letters 1234 RMB. In very fine print it will say "I was offered a choice..." and name an exchange rate, which is "for reference only".

2. After asking about this, the clerk will say he charged you RMB (which he did).

--> However, on your credit card statement, it will show up as in home currency.


This is another DCC. When you decline to pay in your home currency, the clerk has to opt out again from the above to actually charged your card in RMB.

This has nothing to do with "circling" the currency (more common in Hong Kong). Even if you circle RMB you are not automatically opting out of what mnredfox described.


This "procedure" is fairly new; I also had issues with this, and thankfully got it corrected: As bold print usually beats fine print (in my country), my credit card issuing bank was quick in adjusting the amounts. The receipts clearly show RMB. The total amount in your home currency is not stated on the receipt! If it happens to you, chances are good that you can get it fixed.

Alarm bells should ring when you're assured that you get charged in RMB and there's a small print saying the aforementioned.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

Agreed and confirmed. I first mentioned this somewhere a few months ago and most people thought I was just refering to regular dynamic conversion... so I am glad someone else now sees what i saw!!

It is VERY sneaky in the way it is done, the RMB appears in the normal spot you would look for the final amount (right hand column). However, on my receipt the foreign currency amount (and your suppsed 'agreement' to have been charged in the foreign currency) DID appear, but was on the extreme left hand side and in much much smaller print.

I got caught out after a long hotel stay (9 days) and the difference between my CC rate and the dynamic conversion was about USD45. A hefty commission to the modest hotel in which i was staying (which was only about USD55 a night to start with - so almost 10% extra added).

it was early morning when i checked out and I didn't look close enough, only picking up the difference when i saw my bank statement and thought the currency conversion looked unfavourable.

This does differ from the other dynamic conversion where you circle the preferred payment which I experienced in HKG the other week.

mnredfox

Ok, so I did a little bit of research on this given the DCC links and a few google searches. Informative, and seems to be very closely related to what I am saying. Here is a link from moondog, good links to other FT threads.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...rsion-dcc.html

Not sure what you are 100% referring to, but I can almost guarantee that if I circle anything it won't make a difference. I could even write decline like you suggested in another thread, but it won't make a bit of difference. Better to not sign at all and ensure they charge you in RMB.

The purpose of CC's is convenience, and if you accept CC then I shouldn't have to walk around with wads of 100 RMB notes.

^ This is exactly what I am talking about. If you read the receipt carefully, it only states you were "offered a choice", no information about how to choose or what to do in order to choose. Hence when the people swiping your card read it, they too think it is being done in RMB. Again this is my point, it is NOT the hotels/restaurants necessarily trying to rip you off, but the Chinese banks. This is what it makes it tricky, I believed them that it was only%

mnredfox

Yet another hotel horror story today. Got into an argument with the manager who again swore she was charging me in RMB and that they have no "ability" to select charging in RMB only (opting out of charging USD).

I'm convinced that she wasn't trying to fool me as she played with the machine for a few minutes and then called the bank. The banker on the other line was equally clueless as she tried to tell the hotel manager that my card cannot be used in China and is not "setup" properly.

The funny part is when they swiped my card for deposit, it charged properly in RMB.

Anyway, after literally 45 min of going back and forth, I had to leave as I was about to miss my flight and just paid with my local Debit card.

I think what needs to be done is we need to start posting instructions on how to do this. Since each bank (BOC, China Communications, ABC, etc) have their own machines, once we figure out each machine we can help communicate how to do this. This scam is getting out of hand.

jiejie

Had an interesting twist on this last week at PEK airport, Asiana counter where I needed to confirm payment for a ticket made online by foreign cc. When they processed and I saw the slip, the alarm bells immediately went off when I saw the dread "fine print" and the USD amount. But when I did the RMB currency conversion into the USD rate charged, it was actually FAVORABLE to me--about 6.695 RMB per dollar, which was (on that day) better than straight interbank exchange rate. Go figure. I did something new for me--let it go as a converted USD charge.

That was an inexplicably pleasant break, but in general, this practice is a real sneak attack. Though I usually deal cash-only not cc's, I've come across it at other airlines before (earlier this year, Malaysia Airlines Beijing office) when I tried to use a foreign cc, so it's not only at hotels and restaurants that this stunt is pulled.

I agree with above--it would be great if we can amass data and compile a list of "to-do" sequences for each of the various cc machines, to defuse this stinkbomb of a practice in the field.

mnredfox

China Bank of Communications is by far the easiest, in the main menu they have something that says "转换“- they simply need to select "Opt out" and that will show up one the receipt.

The Bank of China machines are a lot lot more complex. I had someone at a hotel spend a long time with the bank to figure it out, and she simply stated the issue was very "complex." I think I may contact her again about it.

jamar

Out of curiosity, is this only happening with "外卡" (Visa/MC/AmEx) or is this also happening to foreign cards that swipe out as UnionPay (for instance, Discover cards or foreign-issued UnionPay cards)? Also, for example, it looks like HSBC handles transactions for the Apple Store (I had no idea they could do that on the mainland, but the card processors have an obvious HSBC logo on the display when idle). Do they do that?

And as a personal anecdote, I've yet to see this.

RCyyz

I just checked my receipts from my recent China trip. One of them indeed had the "I declare I have been offered a choice" printed on it, so I guess I was charged in Canadian dollars that were converted back. I haven't worked out the math on the conversion rates but I'm not exactly expecting it to be favourable.

The receipt was from a restaurant in Hangzhou. The funny thing is, I purchased 2 big ticket items in Shanghai from separate stores (a Nikon D700 camera and subequently a lens to go with it) and it very much appears I was charged RMB for these - there's no "I have been offered a choice" on these ones.

I do recall somewhere (in a Beijing restaurant?) I was asked to input my pin. The machine asked me in English if I wanted to be charged in CDN or RMB. I thought this was an odd question so I chose RMB. Now I know why I was asked the question!

The other receipts I have do not appear to have the rip-off. In my case then, it appears this is a limited scam.

mnredfox

I can almost guarantee you the exchange rate isn't favorable. It should say so on the receipt if you look carefully. This is exactly why I call this a scam, it affects all the foreigners who come here and who don't check until they get home when it's too late. Sure it's only a few bucks each time, but multiply that by each time times all the foreigners, hence the rip off.

IME, hotels are the worst at this. Some restaurants will try this as well, but not in nearly the % as hotels. I have yet to experience this anywhere else using my CC (eg transportation etc).

percysmith

Did you use AE, Visa, Mastercard or Unionpay?

percysmith

You're not the only victim of Bank of Cheapxsses. I lost approx HK$50 in inflated RMB translation rates for two mid-autumn transactions last year

http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...ow.php?id=4303
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...l#post15364504

I wonder do BoC terminals even have an "off" switch? Only after a Global Payments transaction in Taipei did I realise how DCC is meant to work.

I don't think BoC terminals are properly set up for Visa rules-compliant DCC. In both cases my mid-autumn slips were carbon copy slips, so it'd be very difficult for me to tick a "RMB" or "declined" box and have transactions run in RMB. In the Global Payments Taipei transaction, the slip was a thermal slip and my final choice was printed on the customer copy of the slip.

PTravel

Visa.

moondog

PTravel: I can assure you that this DCC thing is really widespread over here right now.

I'm guessing it applies to 10% of the establishments I frequent, but they just so happen to be the types of places in which really large tabs are commonplace (Park Hyatt, Capital Ren, Mint, Velvet).

After a bit of revolutionary fervor during Q1/2010, I backed off my guns a bit because I ended up spending 3 hours of my time in order to recover $20 (successfully).

However, I'm going to recover my December DCC fees because they are quite substantial (I will use the same letter/spreadsheet). Unfortunately, this won't change a thing because my bank will simply absorb those charges and the Park Hyatt will keep on rolling with DCC (still without a clue that there is an issue in the first place).

percysmith

Moondog: when billed in USD in the PRC, how successful were you having your transactions reversed and redone in RMB?

Or are you letting them bill USD then taking it up with your card issuer (cos you've scribbled "I will decline this purchase unless billed in RMB")?

moondog

Getting the charges reversed is actually pretty easy; you just need to a bit of Excel work and your bank will take your word for your exchange rate figures*.

But, fighting it on the spot is often a no-win game; when you're trying to impress clients, arguing over 3% looks really bad.

In short, during my past battle, I learned that fighting it on the back end is simple; just save your receipts, make a spreadsheet, and you're good.

Since I already have a letter and spreadsheet (an FTer asked me to forward this to him about two months ago and I couldn't find it, but I will be sure to keep after my next battle), future work should be minimal. But, even then, I still need to collect my receipts, enter the numbers into my spreadsheet, update my letter, and go to a post office. I need at least an hour in order to accomplish the above.

*I'm going to give my bank a super aggressive number. If they decide to pursue that, they will lose bundles of money in the process.