Peter_N-H

This isn't a question of 'emotion', but merely a simply question (which hasn't been answered) as to whether the tour is being recommended despite the trickery described in detail in earlier postings, or without having read it? The tour may well have been very enjoyable, but should it be recommended wholeheartedly when these problems exist?

Its economy may only be apparent to those with no knowledge of real prices in China, and likely the only element that was cheaper than could have been found independently was the international air fare. Nothing has been said about 'tipping', or about what over-priced shopping was actually done, which must of course be added to the overall cost.

Naturally there is no 'forced' shopping in the strong-arm sense, but being taken somewhere (again and again) specifically targeting you for massive overcharging so that the guides can earn equally massive kick-backs (silk factories included), is hardly honest, is it? Your choices were reduced, your understanding of real prices kept limited, and whatever shopping you did do was a rip-off, I'm sorry to say. And this is time taken from sight-seeing, of course.

The guides are often sweet enough to make your teeth ache. With the money they're making, in some cases dozens of times more than that a university professor makes, who wouldn't be sweet? But unfortunately the advice on shopping they provide is dishonest, and the historical information woefully incomplete, wildly inaccurate, and often deliberately misleading (although this is not entirely their fault). Increased understanding of the realities of China past and present is not a benefit of taking any tour there.

There are alternatives to these 'cheap' (not actually cheap at all) tours, including fully independent travel (undertaken by many small groups), and more honest fully organised touring, and points in between where day tours assist in reaching a group of sights with convenience. But those who plump for the 'cheap' tours need to know what this is going to cost them in reality, so as to avoid the worst of the scams.

RockoHorse

Slightly OT but has anyone here done this tour?

http://www.beijingsideways.com/flyer_ENG.html

It is ranking as #1 thing to do on trip advisor and has incredibly good reviews.
We're going to china for the first time in May and my husband really really wants to do this tour to the great wall. Any thoughts on something like this?

thanks

Peter_N-H

And doesn't this make you really stop and think about this site? The best thing to do in the ancient capital city of China is to get into a Chinese copy of a Russian copy of an ancient German BMW design bike and go for a ride to the Great Wall. Really?

Going to the Great Wall might well arguably be the best thing to do in Beijing, and if read carefully it's precisely that that is being enthused about in some postings, not specifically the bike, and obviously in many cases by people who have tried no other options.

Like much else on Trip Advisor, which is about as useful as looking at chicken entrails when it comes to reliable advice on China, there appears to be manipulation in the responses.

Does he realise that for the same price that is being asked per person here, the entire family could go to the same destination in a hotel limousine? Or that three different Great Wall (tomb, temple) destinations could be visited on three separate days by the whole family in taxis?

It's not encouraging that the company can't even spell its destinations correctly, and that at least one of them, Huang Hua Cheng presumably, it is not legal to climb (as big signs there make clear, although these are widely ignored). It is possible, but unlikely (they certainly make no claims), that the company has the local licences it needs to run these tours or to use the bikes as private hire vehicles.

Peter N-H

anacapamalibu

I know they charge hotels or such to subscribe to their site. This allows
them to get feed on comments. Whether or not their subscription allows
them to bury or remove comments, that I am not sure about. But I have
noticed that comments are not necessarily in chronological order all the
time. Also I have had negative comments remove by TA, on an account
which was subscribed to.

Yelp is currently being sued for extortion because of their practices regarding
manipulation of comments if you pay them.

sylvia hennesy

Ha!! I knew when I read "hapless tourist" (yes, every single traveler who decides for the convenience of a tour is stupid, moronic, idiotic, and forced to SHOP!! and to SPEND TOO MUCH! because they are STUPID!)
that "chicken entrails" couldn't be far behind (really, someone is overly fond of that phrase, and thinks it veddy veddy clever). You wonder that some people choose to spend so much time in a country that is so very full of venial liars, thieves, and mountebanks, each and every one it seems bent on separating "hapless" stumbling tourists from their money.

(I'm figuring this lasts no more than an hour before Peter gets it removed, because it isn't in lockstep.)

READ opinions from ALL the sources you can, and if you decide an organized tour is for you (and perhaps your spouse actually likes the included shopping trips, and would rather pay $20 for a $5 silk wrap to avoid a shouting match with a vendor in a language they don't understand, or that you both like a bus ride vs. a hotel-called private taxi), go ahead and do it.

I don't see that anyone's been called a liar here. (Stupid, hapless, chicken-entrail-reading moron, maybe...)

anacapamalibu

I guess the main attraction being a 5500 mile long wall, built to keep people out.
If someone comes there, then they are fair game.

Loren Pechtel

Just a data point to add here:

We took a short tour because our objective was the Li River cruise--it's only served by tour operators.

1) The bus had a fuzz-buster. (Not that I've ever seen a cop with a radar gun here in China.)

2) We asked specific questions about the lunch that would be served. It's quite obvious that they simply gave my SIL the answers she wanted, not the truth.

3) They were more interested in taking people to a second tour than to our final destination. (Due to low water levels the boat couldn't go all the way and thus the bus that took us to the dock also picked us up from there and took us to the destination.)

Villavic

just tour operators? I thought I could by a boat ticket at the dock to go to Yangshuo, and coming back by bus, on my own, deciding the time I want to spend at Yangshuo and what to visit. Of course the boat option is because I've read the sighseeing is beautiful..

Loren Pechtel

I didn't see anything but tour busses at the dock, nor any means of getting back to town from the dock as the boat did *NOT* go all the way to Yangshuo because of drought conditions--it returned to the same dock it launched from.

gsforfree

We've decided on a tentative itinerary:

Beijing - 4 days
Xi'an - 3 Days
Maybe Chengdu or Shanghai in between
Guilin - 3 days
Hong Kong - 2-3 days

Anything we're missing here? I know it's a huge country and if I want to see more, I'll have to go back. As far as the duration at each city, does it seem alright?

Thanks again for everyone's input!

moondog

I can't recall whether or not your one of the people that is dead set on Guilin. If you're not, you might consider scrapping Guilin in favor of more time in Sichuan and/or Yunnan. I'd fact, I'd probably trim a day off the Xi'an visit in order to maximize my time out there.

ckjmglee

We just got back from 10 days in China...

I'd agree with Moondog's suggestion of cutting off a day or so in Xi'an, but I would say that the family loved Guilin and the Li River - one of our favorite stops. My wife and the kids remarked on the beauty and the uniqueness of the area while shrugging off some of the touristy things...

The new Shangri-La Guilin had some great introductory rates as well as a great dinner and breakfast buffet.

Looking at some of the Li River images via a Google search might help you make a decision.

As for Hong Kong, my jaded 14 year old son lamented that we only had two full days in the area...

Loren Pechtel

One caution at present: We just did the Li River criuse--they are in drought conditions and it only goes to 9 horse hill and then turns back.

ckjmglee

Yes, it's a three hour cruise now...

gsforfree

Here's an update on the itinerary:

Aug 16 arrive PEK (afternoon)

5 nights - trip to the wall, tianjin, some others tbd
Grand Hyatt Tokyo

Aug 21 depart on overnight train to Xian

1 night
Suggestions on hotel?

Aug 23 later morning/early afternoon flight to Shanghai

6 nights shanghai - some daytrips; EXPO

Aug 29 depart morning to guilin

2 nights guilin
Shangri-la Guilin

Aug 31 depart to Shenzen (ferry to hong kong)

3 nights Hong Kong (maybe a day in Macao)

Sep 3 depart back to US (1 day stop in tokyo)

Any thoughts on the itinerary?