moondog

Zhouzhuang is the most famous (and touristy) of the water towns, and there are about 7 others IIRC.

BTW, that long past of yours was quite impressive. Did you write all of that just for this thread or do you have a blog somewhere?

ArizonaRoadWarrior

We took two day tours from Grey Lines when we were in Beijing on our own and we really enjoyed these tours. There were no shopping on these tours. These tours were on Saturday and Sunday. My wife and I were the only couple on the tour...the rest were businessmen from the US, Europe and Austrailia seeing the sights on the weekend.

ArizonaRoadWarrior

I don't have a blog. Back in 2005, we took a 17-day tour to China that was terrible. I kept a daily log of our tour and once we were back home, I started to post our experiences at a few sites to warn other travelers about this tour company; to give insight when someone asked about a tour company to China and etc. I have four versions of the post that I use as a starting point for a post.

Peter_N-H

Depending on the timing of your trip, and when I last looked into their trips they either smartened up their act, or got worse. Their China web pages now seem to be operated by something called Great Sights, and few of them will actually open, so it is impossible to check the current situation, and perhaps they are even no longer running.

But when I last checked, the Ming Tombs trip included a stop at the famous jade factory that the most exploitative tours stop at (or there's a similar cloisonné factory). Indeed there's an analysis of Gray Line's Beijing trips paid for by the company and visible on-line:

http://www.whstudios.com/Travel/Beijing%20Report.pdf

Note the following about the Great Wall/Ming Tombs tour guide:

"He did an great job preparing customers for the sites to be visited, and excelled in pre-selling the jade factory. Instead of turning over the tour to the designated factory representative, Jason demonstrated ways to tell quality jade from imitation."

In short, no different from the shenanigans already discussed in detail. The researchers were from Oregon, and thus almost certianly ill-qualified to detect the lack of value in the 'historical' information provided, let alone that about the quality of the jade, although they clearly recognise it as a sales pitch. And do we get a hint that Gray Lines benefits?

Regardless of that, the price of the trips is outrageous anyway, and targeted at people who compare with prices at home, as if that had anything to do with it at all.

And the tours were priced to match, I'm afraid. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I think a typical ticket for even close-by sights was Ą300, whereas a taxi could be had for the day to the same spots for only slightly more, with three people in it.

The Chinese bus tours that run at weekends are straight there and back to one, two, or three destinations as chosen, with no shopping stops at all, and often discounted entry to the site included.

For instance a trip to the Eastern Qing Tombs, far further out (137km, in fact) which take three hours to reach, costs only Ą60 round-trip, plus Ą110 for entrance (discounted Ą10, which effectively makes the bus only Ą50). The buses may not be as luxurious as the Gray Lines ones but they're comfortable enough, you pay real local prices, and you get to travel with real locals.

Demand an English-speaking guide to fill your ears with misleading Party-written 'history', and attach yourself to a foreign-brand enterprise, and I'm afraid you'll usually be taken to the cleaners just as much as if you joined a full package tour.

Peter N-H
China

anacapamalibu

Yeah those people from Oregon don't know anything about China.

jiejie

Arizona Road Warrior's long post should be required reading for any China novice thinking about taking a tour, and to make sure your expectations aren't overly high, especially for any of the mass-marketed tours. If you really feel the need for logistical support (either due to fear factor or due to extreme time pressure), then getting yourself intercity, and picking up a shortie local-based tour, is probably next best choice after full independent. At least if you get a lemon, you've got a time-limited downside and are not stuck your entire China trip with a pig in a poke.

The important thing to remember is most of China has decent public infrastructure which you can use to great and inexpensive advantage to get around. And in the cities at least, there is usually always someone that can be found that can muddle through with at least basic English to help you out. Doing China independently is not like mounting a Stanley-and-Livingston African exploration.

jiejie

This link appears to go to some kind of consultant advising Gray Line on how to extract more money from its customers. And how guides can increase their tip potential. Doesn't appear that evaluating tour quality, value, historical accuracy, etc was much of a priority. In short, these guys are "Them" --as in other side of table from "Us." It's actually an interesting peek behind the curtain. I'm surprised these consultants/analysts left the report publicly available to all and sundry.

ghfatw

I've heard good things about the company Wild China - does anyone have experience with them?

tom911

I have friends that did a 10 day tour of China just before the Olympics with China Focus. They still rave about the tour and have recommended it to other friends. They are San Francisco based.
http://www.chinafocustravel.com/

Peter_N-H

China Focus (actually a mainland-China-owned company), is an absolutely perfect example of the worst possible tourism practices, guilty of all the problems listed in the earlier detailed post and more--ruthless overcharging at numerous shopping stops, corrupt and exploitative tipping advice, dreadful food, and an itinerary driven by profit for the company not the best interests of the customers, etc. Your friends have got nowhere near China's realities unfortunately, and unlike the earlier poster on this thread, have no idea just what was practiced upon them. (And might well remain in denial even if it was explained to them after the event. No one likes to feel they've been taken for a ride.)

tom911

Have you done a lot of travel with China Focus to come to these conclusions? All I know is my friends were very happy with hotels and meals, and they'd book again. Clearly you wouldn't.

anacapamalibu

For what its worth, they are a registered corporation in CA since 1999.

Entity Name: CHINA FOCUS, INC.
Entity Number: C2129532
Date Filed: 01/05/1999
Status: ACTIVE
Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA
Entity Address: 870 MARKET ST STE 1215
Entity City, State, Zip: SAN FRANCISCO CA 94102
Agent for Service of Process: JACK LEE
Agent Address: 870 MARKET ST STE 1215
Agent City, State, Zip: SAN FRANCISCO CA 94102

sylvia hennesy

Tom, I'm so sorry that your friends didn't have the wonderful time they thought they did! Maybe you shouldn't even let them know...

I'm concerned about getting on the wrong Chinese bus and ending up somewhere I wasn't wanting to go, and losing valuable sight-seeing time in Beijing. (Daughter will be our guide in other cities, speaking and reading for us, but can't be in Beijing.) I'm trying to learn some characters, but not much progress so far.

tom911

At least their apparently unknown dissatisfaction was made up for the following year when their daughter came home from Beijing with 6 Olympic medals. I'm sure that is some consolation to them. They're seasoned travelers having been around Europe, Asia and Australia, and I know one of them is a shrewd bargainer when it comes to jewelry, having seen her in action. I have no skills in that area.

They found out about China Focus from other friends that did the tour before them. They paid about $1,000 a head which included air (thought that was a spectacular price). I would have gone along with them but for the fact that I was arriving back from a trip to Buenos Aries a day or two before and didn't want to do that many consecutive days out. I like a break between big trips.

Peter_N-H

People who've travelled on the tour being defensive after the event about their choices, I can understand, even though they may have no experience of the alternatives (less mendacious tours, independent travel, real costs, real food). But without having even taken the tour? That's a little harder to understand.

I have taken many tours in China, and made a detailed study of organised tourism there. I speak Mandarin, talk to guides (and sit with them while they count the kick-backs) and have interviewed many tour companies about their policies and procedures.

The description of Ritz Tours given earlier can be generalised to the overwhelming majority of organised tours in China--the scams described are standard procedure, and the nearer to the budget end of tourism you get the more pronounced they become. China Focus, China Spree, Ritz, etc. are at the bottom end of the price range, and amongst the worst offenders.

China Focus (a repeated spammer of public forums with staff pretending to be travellers) has been very widely criticised for its practices in many forums, and to some degree it has reacted to criticism to disguise its behaviour without actively changing it. Its itineraries make no mention of innumerable shopping stops, although elsewhere in general advice it provides false information about value and encourages visitors to shop vigorously. As mentioned in the earlier description, these stops are designed specifically to separate the hapless tourist from as much money as possible for as low a value as possible, and massive overcharging is guaranteed, with kick-backs going to the guides or company.

It has rewritten its (effectively non-optional) tipping advice to describe it as a 'service fee', which is openly non-optional--an outrageous extra fee per day entirely out of tune with local norms both in size and indeed in its very existence. It says its tour fee includes local services, but then it now charges these fees on top without the option in order to circumvent earlier criticism.

Food stops are at generic restaurants specifically tailoring to tour groups in reproducing the kind of bland pap that passes for much 'Chinese' food overseas, but which visitors there from China find almost inedible. One of the greatest pleasures of visiting China is discovering what real Chinese food is, and its immense variety. Tours, which visit the restaurants that pay the biggest kick-backs (and the value comes out of the quality of the food) never introduce that, so their tourists never learn any better. Accommodation is chosen on the same kick-back-led basis, and others have described staying at hotels on the rims of cities requiring bus journeys into town, and finding themselves bused to another hotel just for lunch (accompanied by a demonstration of something for sale).

The only element of these tours that cannot be bought more cheaply or improved on in quality as an independent traveller is the international air fare. The only benefits are simply not having to think for oneself, and covering a lot of ground in a short time. Some argue they gain value by taking the bait of the low price, but sitting out all the shopping stops, taking their own reading materials rather than listening to the nonsense spouted by the guides, and going off to find their own meals, sometimes skipping whole days of touring within a single destination. The benefits must be marginal.

Millions of people choose McDonald's every day, and would be happy to be quoted publicly on how much they like the food. But that doesn't make the realities of the fat, sugar, and salt content any different, or make the food any more nutritious. The realities of touring China are sour and unpleasant to relate, but the earlier post details some of them well, China Focus behaves in the same way, and wishing it weren't so unfortunately won't make things any different. Those who have yet to depart need to be aware of what they are getting themselves into.