Community
Wiki Posts
Search

TSA and 'Druggies'

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 4:04 am
  #106  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 966
Originally Posted by TSORon
Please, please, show us in the Constitution, where it says that you have a right to fly on a commercial aircraft.
The Constitution also doesn't tell me I have the right to walk or ride in a bus or car (or on a horse, for that matter). It says I have the right to travel. Does that mean TSA is going to impose stupid, useless, secret rules on all THOSE means of travel, too?
erictank is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 6:19 am
  #107  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
All eyes on you!
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: An NPR mind living in a Fox News world
Posts: 14,343
Originally Posted by erictank
TSA won't *LET* you study up on the rules - they're SSI, you see. And even those requirements and rules you CAN read about on their site can be overridden by a TSO out of "an abundance of caution", who will then tell you to do whatever the hell he wants you to do if you want to fly today . We don't even have the ABILITY to "study up and get a license to be a passenger on a commercial airliner" if we WANTED to, where it's required to study and practice to get a license (and hence, to understand the published rules of the road and the proper operation of a motor vehicle) to operate a car on a public road. The situations really aren't parallel at all.
Maybe I left a negative modifier out of a sentence. My point is just as you state. By virtue of possessing a license, you must have known and understood and demonstrated that you had knowledge of the rules of the road. One is on more of a level playing field with a traffic cop because both of you have the same basic understanding of traffic laws. When confronting the TSA at an airport, there isn't even a playing field.
FliesWay2Much is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 7:15 am
  #108  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: HSV
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by erictank
So, Dean, just how good WAS that Vader who came through your line, anyways?
Oh, it was a really cheap one. Most of it seemed to be plastic, and even the stuff that was supposed to be metal was too shiny - like aluminum sticker-plating over plastic, maybe. No lightsaber, either, ForceFX or otherwise. Also, the box on the chest wasn't functional, so it was more like a plastic shell than anything else. Kind of like one of these (not this exact one - this one's too 'colorful' but you get the idea of the cheapness)

The rest of it was probably vinyl, not leather.

Still, it wasn't nearly as bad as the Batman we had come through one time. The mask was the best part of the whole costume, being made out of PVC (most likely, anyway). His utility belt was painted foam, and the "boots" were foam overlays on top of his actual shoes that velcro'd in the back. And tights. In the name of God, tights. All in all, it was nowhere near as awesome as this costume - and I would consider that one to be cheap as hell, too.

The Batman guy was flying out to go meet with some friends somewhere for the opening of The Dark Knight.

and the electronics in the voice-amp/changer would probably cause the average TSO to flip out.
I'd actually be willing to bet that, the electronics not at all that too complex in terms of what it's designed to do, a fully-functional voice box wouldn't look too bad on x-ray. Probably about on the same level as those for-the-kids wanna-be computer 'learning tools' you can see in Wal-Mart's toy department, and those things are little more than three wires, a battery, and one PCB in an enormously-oversized plastic housing. IPods are more internally complex than those things.

In other news, here's some pictures of something totally unrelated! Action shots are always better without captions, I think. For the record, these are all publicly-accessable images.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5

Last edited by HSVTSO Dean; Apr 18, 2009 at 8:25 am
HSVTSO Dean is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 7:48 am
  #109  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
20 Countries Visited
500k
All eyes on you!
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 30,970
Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
Oh, it was a really cheap one. Most of it seemed to be plastic, and even the stuff that was supposed to be metal was too shiny - like aluminum sticker-plating over plastic, maybe. No lightsaber, either, ForceFX or otherwise. Also, the box on the chest wasn't functional, so it was more like a plastic shell than anything else. Kind of like one of these (not this exact one - this one's too 'colorful' but you get the idea of the cheapness)

The rest of it was probably vinyl, not leather.

Still, it wasn't nearly as bad as the Batman we had come through one time. The mask was the best part of the whole costume, being made out of PVC (most likely, anyway). His utility belt was painted foam, and the "boots" were foam overlays on top of his actual shoes that velcro'd in the back. And tights. In the name of God, tights. All in all, it was nowhere near as awesome as this costume - and I would consider that one to be cheap as hell, too.

The Batman guy was flying out to go meet with some friends somewhere for the opening of The Dark Knight.



I'd actually be willing to bet that, the electronics not at all that too complex in terms of what it's designed to do, a fully-functional voice box wouldn't look too bad at all. Probably about on the same level as those for-the-kids wanna-be computer 'learning tools' you can see in Wal-Mart's toy department, and those things are little more than three wires, a battery, and one PCB in an enormously-oversized plastic housing. IPods are more internally complex than those things.

In other news, here's some pictures of something totally unrelated! Action shots are always better without captions, I think. For the record, these are all publicly-accessable images.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5

Pic #3 says all we need to know about TSA. How sad!
Boggie Dog is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 11:02 am
  #110  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
10 Countries Visited500k30 Nights20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
In other news, here's some pictures of something totally unrelated! Action shots are always better without captions, I think. For the record, these are all publicly-accessable images.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
What's with the hat?

I'd seriously debate keeping my kid home from school that day, or at least remind him to say something similar to what he knows to be true about Kippie ...
Superguy is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 11:02 am
  #111  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
10 Countries Visited15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Sunshine State
Programs: Deltaworst Peon Level, TSA "Layer 21 Club", NW WP RIP
Posts: 11,372
Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
Oh, itIn other news, here's some pictures of something totally unrelated! Action shots are always better without captions, I think. For the record, these are all publicly-accessable images.
Pic 1
Pic One reminds me that almost every one the country wore some sort of a uniform in 1939 in Germany.

(Apologies to Mr. Godwin, I had to use the analogy.)

Is that really a TSA blue smurf in the center wearing shoulder braid and a Smoky Bear hat with white gloves? If so it's obvious The Plan is to have OBL laugh himself to death when he sees the waste of US tax money.
Flaflyer is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 11:24 am
  #112  
10 Countries Visited
20 Countries Visited
30 Countries Visited
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,957
Pic 5 throws off the veil of how information is classified as SSI. You spin the wheel and where it stops determines what security level the info is tagged with.
ND Sol is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 11:38 am
  #113  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
20 Countries Visited
1M
40 Nights
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Marriott or Hilton hot tub with a big drink <glub> Beverage: To-Go Bag DYKWIA:SSSS /rolleyes ☈ Date Night:Costco
Programs: Sea Shell Lounge Platinum, TSA Pre✓ Refusnik Diamond, PWP Gold, FT subset of the subset
Posts: 12,523
Originally Posted by Superguy
I'd seriously debate keeping my kid home from school that day, or at least remind him to say something similar to what he knows to be true about Kippie ...
More and more people every day come to realize how useless and intrusive the TSA is, so the organization tries to indoctrinate the youth. Thats really sick.
N965VJ is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 12:01 pm
  #114  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
Oh, it was a really cheap one. Most of it seemed to be plastic, and even the stuff that was supposed to be metal was too shiny - like aluminum sticker-plating over plastic, maybe. No lightsaber, either, ForceFX or otherwise. Also, the box on the chest wasn't functional, so it was more like a plastic shell than anything else. Kind of like one of these (not this exact one - this one's too 'colorful' but you get the idea of the cheapness)

The rest of it was probably vinyl, not leather.

Still, it wasn't nearly as bad as the Batman we had come through one time. The mask was the best part of the whole costume, being made out of PVC (most likely, anyway). His utility belt was painted foam, and the "boots" were foam overlays on top of his actual shoes that velcro'd in the back. And tights. In the name of God, tights. All in all, it was nowhere near as awesome as this costume - and I would consider that one to be cheap as hell, too.

The Batman guy was flying out to go meet with some friends somewhere for the opening of The Dark Knight.



I'd actually be willing to bet that, the electronics not at all that too complex in terms of what it's designed to do, a fully-functional voice box wouldn't look too bad on x-ray. Probably about on the same level as those for-the-kids wanna-be computer 'learning tools' you can see in Wal-Mart's toy department, and those things are little more than three wires, a battery, and one PCB in an enormously-oversized plastic housing. IPods are more internally complex than those things.

In other news, here's some pictures of something totally unrelated! Action shots are always better without captions, I think. For the record, these are all publicly-accessable images.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
HSVTSODean, I really don't understand the point of these pictures. "TSOs like children and puppies"?

Frankly, I do not like indoctrinating children in this fashion. I want children to equate police uniforms with actual police, i.e. a child who finds him or herself alone, lost or in trouble should seek out the uniformed policeman or sheriff. I wouldn't want them to see a TSO in uniform and think that's a LEO who will help them.

I also don't like the idea of training children to trust in the authority of TSOs. Yes, there are many good ones who do their jobs professionally and courteously, but there are far too many bad apples who enjoy playing the petty tyrant. In all my life, I've never had a personal encounter with a "bad cop." I've lost track of the number of abusive and ignorant TSOs that I've encountered.

Rather than concentrating on this kind of cheap and questionable "PR," I'd be much happier if TSA would clean up its own ranks, provide better screening (of TSOs, that is), provide better training, and focus on actually executing its mission of keeping commercial air travel safe rather the engaging in the stupid dog-and-pony show that provides the illusion of security to those who don't know better, but does absolutely nothing to make flying safer.
PTravel is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 1:58 pm
  #115  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: HSV
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by PTravel
HSVTSODean, I really don't understand the point of these pictures. "TSOs like children and puppies"?
No real point from me. Just felt like doing something random.

But if you want to know the actual stories behind the images, I'll put them out. Again, this is all information accessable to any member of the public. You just have to know where to look.

It's still more fun for people to make their own subtitles for it, though. I loved the "SSI level spinwheel" from ND Sol. ^

(BTW, just because I dislike people's full names being posted on the Internet, I'm redacting everyone's last names in the stories. Yeah, it's out for public viewing, and put there by the TSA, but I'm the one pushing the submit button so I'm going to redact everyone's name. So there.)


Pic 1:
On April 8, Lead TSOs Bernard and Mayra (pictured) of the TSA Miami International Airport Color Guard, helped deliver a U.S. Flag of Honor to the funeral of three police officers killed in the line of duty recently in Pittsburgh. Also pictured are officers from eight area police departments. A bagpiper played America the Beautiful as the flag was presented to a pilot of a non-stop flight to Pittsburgh. The Flag of Honor flew over the state capital in Austin, Texas, on the day of the 9/11 attacks, and later flew over ground zero in New York in honor of 9/11s fallen heroes.
Pic 2:
TSA employees from Houstons George Bush Intercontinental Airport visited the Michael E. Debakey Veterans Affairs Medical Center March 25-26 to meet with veterans as part of ongoing community outreach efforts. The veteran soldiers shared stories and talked about the friendships formed during military service. TSO Joseph (pictured) sang and played guitar to a group of veterans in the hospitals recreation area, as a medical center volunteer looked on. It was definitely something to remember, said Joseph.
Pic 3:
TSAs Safety Action Team at Chicago Midway recently visited the citys John C. Dore Elementary School to help more than 500 students get fingerprinted and receive KIDS identification cards.

The Chicago Kids Identification System (KIDS), maintained by the city, is a computer system designed to help locate missing or abducted children by storing their digital pictures, fingerprints, and other information provided by parents. Database access is permitted only if the police or family report a child is missing. The information can be posted on the Internet and distributed to law enforcement and media.
Pic 4:
Jessie, a TSO at Baton Rouge (La.) Metropolitan Airport, recently participated in Real Men Read, a literacy initiative sponsored by the East Baton Rouge Parish School System.

More than 300 men visited district schools one day last month to read to students. Jessie visited Greenbrier Elementary School and read the Dr. Seuss book, Oh, The Places Youll Go!

The book deals with making decisions and being self-confident so it was a good basis for a conversation with the students, Jessie said. The students had a lot of questions about TSA and the airport, too, and I was happy to answer those. I enjoyed their smiles and their enthusiasm.

The initiative, started in Chicago, also gives men an opportunity to be positive role models.
Pic 5:
Using innovative ways to spread the Sensitive Security Information (SSI) awareness message, TSA's nearly 200 SSI coordinators reached out to employees with multiple events across the country during the agency's SSI Awareness Week Nov. 17-21.
HSVTSO Dean is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 2:31 pm
  #116  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean
No real point from me. Just felt like doing something random.

But if you want to know the actual stories behind the images, I'll put them out. Again, this is all information accessable to any member of the public. You just have to know where to look.
I hate to sound like I don't approve of most everything that TSA does (I don't, but I hate to sound like it), but here goes:

Pic 1: On April 8, Lead TSOs Bernard and Mayra (pictured) of the TSA Miami International Airport Color Guard, helped deliver a U.S. Flag of Honor to the funeral of three police officers killed in the line of duty recently in Pittsburgh. Also pictured are officers from eight area police departments. A bagpiper played America the Beautiful as the flag was presented to a pilot of a non-stop flight to Pittsburgh. The Flag of Honor flew over the state capital in Austin, Texas, on the day of the 9/11 attacks, and later flew over ground zero in New York in honor of 9/11s fallen heroes.
This seems to me like TSA is presenting itself as a uniformed service equivalent to the military or LEOs. Though I've never served in the military, I honor our members of the armed forces (and LEOs, fireman, EMTs and others who put their life on the line to protect us). I can't speak for how a vet would react to this, but it seems a little . . . well . . . arrogant for TSA to put itself in the same class as those who put themselves in harm's way for the benefit of their fellow citizens.

Pic 2: TSA employees from Houstons George Bush Intercontinental Airport visited the Michael E. Debakey Veterans Affairs Medical Center March 25-26 to meet with veterans as part of ongoing community outreach efforts. The veteran soldiers shared stories and talked about the friendships formed during military service. TSO Joseph (pictured) sang and played guitar to a group of veterans in the hospitals recreation area, as a medical center volunteer looked on. It was definitely something to remember, said Joseph.
I think visiting hospitalized vets is a great thing to do. However, with respect to it being done in TSA uniforms raises the same question as in 1, above.

Pic 3: TSAs Safety Action Team at Chicago Midway recently visited the citys John C. Dore Elementary School to help more than 500 students get fingerprinted and receive KIDS identification cards.

The Chicago Kids Identification System (KIDS), maintained by the city, is a computer system designed to help locate missing or abducted children by storing their digital pictures, fingerprints, and other information provided by parents. Database access is permitted only if the police or family report a child is missing. The information can be posted on the Internet and distributed to law enforcement and media.
As I said in my previous post, I am absolutely opposed to the idea of children being taught that a TSO is like a policeman or teacher.

Pic 4:Jessie, a TSO at Baton Rouge (La.) Metropolitan Airport, recently participated in Real Men Read, a literacy initiative sponsored by the East Baton Rouge Parish School System.

More than 300 men visited district schools one day last month to read to students. Jessie visited Greenbrier Elementary School and read the Dr. Seuss book, Oh, The Places Youll Go!

The book deals with making decisions and being self-confident so it was a good basis for a conversation with the students, Jessie said. The students had a lot of questions about TSA and the airport, too, and I was happy to answer those. I enjoyed their smiles and their enthusiasm.

The initiative, started in Chicago, also gives men an opportunity to be positive role models.
Same objection. Teaching kids about the importance of reading is terrific. Coming to class and talking about TSA on a, "This is my daddy's or mommy's job" day is fine, as well. Presenting uniformed TSOs to school children, who are taught to associate uniforms and badges with LEOs is not. And, if TSA was being honest, the book should not have been, "Oh, The Places You'll Go," but, "Do You Want to Fly, Today?"

Pic 5: Using innovative ways to spread the Sensitive Security Information (SSI) awareness message, TSA's nearly 200 SSI coordinators reached out to employees with multiple events across the country during the agency's SSI Awareness Week Nov. 17-21.
I asked this question in another thread but didn't get an answer. Maybe you can provide one.

Do TSOs have security clearances? I mentioned that, when I worked in aerospace, I held, at various times, Confidential and Secret security clearances. The former was relatively pro forma, but the latter was not -- I was required to disclose everywhere I'd lived from when I was 16, identify friends and associates, provide banking details and a variety of other personal information that was specifically and expressly investigated and verified by the FBI, who did things like visit my neighbors and make inquiries about me. I also had to sign a statement indicating I was aware of the criminal penalties for disclosing classified information. Even after receiving my Secret clearance, I was only once exposed to information that I would consider remotely related to national security, and that was the result of an accident -- something was delivered to my desk that should not have been (and, though it some 25 years ago, I still won't say what it was because I take the obligations I incurred in connection with the clearance seriously).

What security vetting do TSOs receive before they're exposed to "sensitive security information," whatever that is? What security does SSI carry? Confidential? Secret? Top Secret? Is it even classified? What I don't understand is how it can even be regarded as sensitive. When I ask a TSO, "why do you think you can do this?", and he says, "I can't tell you because it's SSI," wouldn't that imply that procedure is authorized as SSI, and I now know that? Is SSI subject to declassification review in the event of a FOIA request? It should be, by law.

I'd appreciate any illumination you can provide.
PTravel is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 7:32 pm
  #117  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: HSV
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by PTravel
Do TSOs have security clearances? I mentioned that, when I worked in aerospace, I held, at various times, Confidential and Secret security clearances. The former was relatively pro forma, but the latter was not -- I was required to disclose everywhere I'd lived from when I was 16, identify friends and associates, provide banking details and a variety of other personal information that was specifically and expressly investigated and verified by the FBI, who did things like visit my neighbors and make inquiries about me. I also had to sign a statement indicating I was aware of the criminal penalties for disclosing classified information. Even after receiving my Secret clearance, I was only once exposed to information that I would consider remotely related to national security, and that was the result of an accident -- something was delivered to my desk that should not have been (and, though it some 25 years ago, I still won't say what it was because I take the obligations I incurred in connection with the clearance seriously).

What security vetting do TSOs receive before they're exposed to "sensitive security information," whatever that is? What security does SSI carry? Confidential? Secret? Top Secret? Is it even classified? What I don't understand is how it can even be regarded as sensitive. When I ask a TSO, "why do you think you can do this?", and he says, "I can't tell you because it's SSI," wouldn't that imply that procedure is authorized as SSI, and I now know that? Is SSI subject to declassification review in the event of a FOIA request? It should be, by law.

I'd appreciate any illumination you can provide.
TSOs do not have security clearances, and SSI information is not classified. It is protected information, but not up to the point that classified information is. Releasing SSI to people without a legitimate need to know doesn't carry criminal penalties (that I'm aware of, and I might be wrong), but does carry civil penalties.

The procedure itself - the what, as it were; the physical act of what is done - is typically not protected information. You learn that just by being handwanded, for example. The SSI part of the handwanding process (just to stick with that particular line) is the specific steps of what makes us do certain things, and what, in particular, we're looking for. Also, any information that the public would be told when they're at a security checkpoint is, by definition, not protected which is how I could tell you, back when the information was relevant, that government-issued credential cards weren't acceptable as a sole form of ID (they are now, for the record) even though the exact page that the information was on has an SSI footer on it. Not everything in the SOP is SSI, but TSA doesn't differentiate between SSI information and non-SSI information. So most people, out of that abundance of caution on not wanting to lose their job, just say that every part of it is SSI and call it a day. This is technically incorrect.

Fortunately, I'm fairly good at slicing between protected and non-protected information.

Also, SSI is exempt from FOIA.

Bruce Schneier did a really good piece on SSI back in 2005. Here's a bit:
In 1993, the U.S. government created a new classification of information -- Sensitive Security Information -- that was exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. The information under this category, as defined by a D.C. court, was limited to information related to the safety of air passengers. This was greatly expanded in 2002, when Congress deleted two words, "air" and "passengers," and changed "safety" to "security." Currently, there's a lot of information covered under this umbrella.
Here's the whole article.
HSVTSO Dean is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 8:10 pm
  #118  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
Interesting. I'll have to read the article later.

Thanks.
PTravel is offline  
Old Apr 18, 2009 | 9:56 pm
  #119  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Louisville, KY, US
Programs: QF Plat - OW EMD | DL Gold / Starwood Gold
Posts: 6,106
Originally Posted by tsadude1
What really seems to be the real question is that how can TSA get away with violating constitutional rights of American citizens? This forum has numerous lawyers who use court cases as examples of how it's wrong but the TSA is still here. There are also nurmerous experts on what the drafters of the constitution intended to imply so how does the TSA do it? Congress is well aware of it,so why hasnt it stopped? Obama doesn't seem to care. Why isn't there a real push to change it? Maybe because my new boss is too focused on me going to the dark side as a veteren and other dumb crap
At the moment it all comes down to politics and the courts.

At one time slavery was legal. During WWII, Japanese Americans were put into "relocation camps"; there were Jim Crow laws on the books at one time.

Look at some of the wiretapping, including domestic wiretapping that existed under the last administration - and may even still be happening.

Just because the above was legal at one point in time does not make it right.

At the moment, I'd say we're on a slippery slope.
SDF_Traveler is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.