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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Ask a SPOTnik (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/858086-ask-spotnik.html)

abcxyz Aug 25, 2008 6:50 am


Originally Posted by tsadude1 (Post 10251159)
If a pax has such noticeable behavior because of extreme anxiety or paranoid schizophrenia would you like a seat next to them???? :confused:

Define noticeable behaviour. I wouldn't discriminate, though many would.

My brother has autism; if he flies, he takes Valium and he's fine.

abcxyz Aug 25, 2008 6:52 am


Originally Posted by tsadude1 (Post 10251173)
How would a BDO know what your security clearance is and why would it matter. Your getting on a plane to travel, what does clearence have to do with it. If you are traveling with certain docs you should know what the procedure is anyway. We have SOCOM pax often, great travelers.

It's a question. My answer would be "No, it doesn't matter" though I'm curious what type of "leeway" is given to officials/people you know, if any. Certainly some pleases are more lax than others.

abcxyz Aug 25, 2008 6:52 am


Originally Posted by stinky123 (Post 10251231)
It doesn't matter whether I'd like a seat next to an extremely anxious person or not--that should not deprive them of the liberty to fly.

Just goes to show the prejudice of TSA - and most people.

abcxyz Aug 25, 2008 6:54 am


Originally Posted by tsadude1 (Post 10251369)
Usually extreme anxiety or paranoid schizophrenia pax are brought to the airport on one way tickets because the person with whom they were staying with can no longer handle/deal with them.

I'm quite speechless from this statement, and when I get the words, I'll refrain from saying them.

Thanks for keeping America - and its values - safe.

abcxyz Aug 25, 2008 7:10 am


Originally Posted by spotnik (Post 10254608)
SPOT is pretty straight forward. The only consideration is "person displays behavior x" or "person does not display behavior x." Odd behavior that is not part of the program is irrelevant. A person's possible psychological disorder is also irrelevant.

Sx displayed by the aforementioned could also be displayed by those "terrorists." You have no way of knowing; and you have to lean on the sign of caution --would you even believe somebody if they told you they had XYZ disability if you're interrogating them (only making their sx worse)?

jampa Aug 25, 2008 7:14 am


Originally Posted by spotnik (Post 10246784)
Many passengers refuse to engage in smalltalk with us. Usually they are busy, or they hate TSA. In my experience, none have been terrorists. The most any of them have been trying to hide was a tube of Carmex. I told that passenger he shouldn't need to hide it.

You totally sidestepped my question, will refusing to engage smalltalk with a BDO, or anyone else in the line lead to a secondary? I get the feeling the government thinks 'normal citizen' means the silly chatty-cathy people and the rest of us have something to hide, so we warrent further searches.

Wally Bird Aug 25, 2008 8:19 am


Originally Posted by spotnik (Post 10254608)
BDOs have to get along with the people to be effective. If they approach the situation as the typical power tripping jerk, they will get a lot of "I don't have to talk to you." responses.

Be as friendly as you like, you'll still get that response from me. Nothing personal.

Originally Posted by spotnik (Post 10254608)
They can't send you to secondary for ignoring them.

Don't believe it for a second. Again, nothing personal.

I'm not flying domestically any time soon, but I'm sure the first "I was SSSSed for ignoring a BDO" post won't be long coming.

bocastephen Aug 25, 2008 8:26 am


Originally Posted by tsadude1 (Post 10247217)
So you should no problem in presenting us this smoking gun evidence (sworn statements,names,dates,locations,circumstances)tha t TSOs are accepting 'rewards'. I mean you are doing this in the nations best interest right? So share.


Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean (Post 10248189)
...Hah, really? When the hell did that start, and why aren't they doing anything of the sort at Huntsville? :D We've had several drug busts and the like, and the only 'reward' we've ever recieved is... well... nothing, really. We just get back to work. What evidence do you speak of? The airport public saftey guys get a reward (IIRC, I think one of them said that it was the street-value of the drugs added to their department funding), so to speak, but not us extras in the white shirts.

And, for the record, it is SOP that it's to be reported. There's no justification given for it, no reasoning, and no training regarding it. It just is.

There was evidence of this reported in the media a few years ago - I believe they found these arrangements at an airport or airports in California. We debated it here at the time. Just because you're not being offered incentive payments doesn't mean these arrangements don't exist between screeners and cops at other airports.

If it's in the SOP, I will deal with that soon enough. Once my group, with the help of our professional lobbyist partners, decapitates and finishes off SecureFlight, my next goal is getting us a copy of the TSA SOP and taking time to find this and other 'gems' we will use in our discussions with Congressional reps.

spotnik Aug 25, 2008 9:05 am


Originally Posted by abcxyz (Post 10255720)
Sx displayed by the aforementioned could also be displayed by those "terrorists." You have no way of knowing; and you have to lean on the sign of caution --would you even believe somebody if they told you they had XYZ disability if you're interrogating them (only making their sx worse)?

Yes, if they display a group of behaviors which look like behaviors which could be displayed by a terrorist, we will talk to them. The talk is supposed to have a friendly tone, and certainly should not feel like an interrogation. Yes, they will probably get worse, many people without psychological disorders also get worse when we talk with them. Most of the public seems to experience additional stress when selected for secondary screening. This is not unusual. If they display signs that they are not being truthful in the conversation, I will not believe them. If they do not display such signs, I will believe them.


Originally Posted by jampa (Post 10255733)
You totally sidestepped my question, will refusing to engage smalltalk with a BDO, or anyone else in the line lead to a secondary? I get the feeling the government thinks 'normal citizen' means the silly chatty-cathy people and the rest of us have something to hide, so we warrent further searches.

Refusing to engage in smalltalk with a BDO, or anyone else, may not lead to a secondary. The only things which may lead to a secondary are the criteria outlined in the BDO and Checkpoint SOPs. Those criteria are SSI, so I cannot share them. I wish that I could, but I cannot. If you think that you were referred for secondary because you refused to talk to any TSA employee, pursue the issue immediately. If you are referred to secondary because you refused to talk to any TSA employee, the person who referred you violated SOP and the TSA civil rights policy.


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 10256002)
Be as friendly as you like, you'll still get that response from me. Nothing personal.Don't believe it for a second. Again, nothing personal.

I'm not flying domestically any time soon, but I'm sure the first "I was SSSSed for ignoring a BDO" post won't be long coming.

I never take these things personally. I have also given many of my coworkers the "It's not against you, it's against the uniform." speech.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a "SSSSed for ignoring a BDO" incident come up. That's why I've been suggesting that people pursue the issue if it does come up. These employees need to be revealed and properly dealt with.

Also, they really do hammer on the point in class that pax are not required to talk to us. I know it won't stop the rogue BDO or the rogue screener pretending to be a BDO.


Originally Posted by bocastephen (Post 10256036)
There was evidence of this reported in the media a few years ago - I believe they found these arrangements at an airport or airports in California. We debated it here at the time. Just because you're not being offered incentive payments doesn't mean these arrangements don't exist between screeners and cops at other airports.

If it's in the SOP, I will deal with that soon enough. Once my group, with the help of our professional lobbyist partners, decapitates and finishes off SecureFlight, my next goal is getting us a copy of the TSA SOP and taking time to find this and other 'gems' we will use in our discussions with Congressional reps.

Link, please, if you can find it. I would like to read more about this issue. I do hope that any employees involved in this arrangement found appropriate accommodations in the relevant department of corrections.

Good luck with your lobbying efforts. I will look forward to following the story as it proceeds.

Wally Bird Aug 25, 2008 9:10 am


Originally Posted by spotnik (Post 10256190)
I know it won't stop the rouge BDO or the rouge screener pretending to be a BDO.

Well, I'm certainly NOT talking to any BDO who is wearing rouge. :p

bocastephen Aug 25, 2008 9:40 am


Originally Posted by spotnik (Post 10256190)
....Link, please, if you can find it. I would like to read more about this issue. I do hope that any employees involved in this arrangement found appropriate accommodations in the relevant department of corrections.

Good luck with your lobbying efforts. I will look forward to following the story as it proceeds.

I am going to look for it...I recall it being part of a broadcast on one of those ABC newsmagazines.

spotnik Aug 25, 2008 9:47 am


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 10256216)
Well, I'm certainly NOT talking to any BDO who is wearing rouge. :p

Lol, The word was meant to be rogue. I will correct when I get home tonight.


Originally Posted by bocastephen (Post 10256355)
I am going to look for it...I recall it being part of a broadcast on one of those ABC newsmagazines.

Thank you. At the least, that gives me a place to start looking for myself.

aspex Aug 25, 2008 10:00 am


Originally Posted by HSVTSO Dean (Post 10246386)
I can confirm that. It's happened twice at Huntsville, one of them where I personally found it (dude had, like, $14,000 in just, like, wads of $100s in his pockets) during a pat-down. I reported it to the Supervisor, Supervisor called Customs. Customs got there, asked him a few questions, and let him go after determining that he wasn't traveling overseas (which was, for some reason, something we were very specifically not allowed to inquire about ourselves; probably has something to do with legal liability and law enforcement procedures). The whole shebang took about ten minutes, IIRC, with nine of it being Customs' travel time.

This makes no sense. You guys have our boarding passes in your hands. Both before the WTMD and after. How is it you do not know the pax is not travelling internationally? Something doesn't smell right here.

tsadude1 Aug 25, 2008 10:06 am


Originally Posted by abcxyz (Post 10255659)
I'm quite speechless from this statement, and when I get the words, I'll refrain from saying them.

Thanks for keeping America - and its values - safe.

Sorry that you would such a hard time believing that this could happen but I have encountered this twice in the passed year. One individual actually had a physical altercation with a police officer. Happens all the time to elderly parents, the children ship the parents off to another relative when they no longer can deal with them. Talk about values, its not the BDOs who are dropping these folks off at the curb and then driving off. More often than not BDOs can calm people down and reduce a pax stress level.

tsadude1 Aug 25, 2008 10:14 am


Originally Posted by abcxyz (Post 10255644)
Define noticeable behaviour. I wouldn't discriminate, though many would.

People will have involuntary reactions to fear or stress. These behaviors are multiplied by those who are trying to hide it. You can "SPOT" these pax very easliy.


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