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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 9:45 am
  #46  
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Originally Posted by etch5895
Not if the airline invests in a locking metal grate to seal the flight deck area off from the rest of the aircraft, and if the pilots land the plane instead of giving in to hijacker demands. A plane that lands safely with a cabin full of dead hostages is better than a plane slammed into a building in my book.

Oh, that and screening all cargo for explosives.

Now, the question still remains...can the BDO lawfully detain someone (either on their own or with law enforcement help) without probable cause that a crime is being or has been committed? Furthermore, if they can, will they be held responsible for all costs that the innocent traveler incurs due to the unplanned detention (non-refundable plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc...)?
Like TSOs, a BDO is not a law enforcement officer, has no arrest powers, and doesn't have the power to detain anyone. The BDO would have to call over a LEO for that.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 9:48 am
  #47  
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Originally Posted by etch5895
...

Now, the question still remains...can the BDO lawfully detain someone (either on their own or with law enforcement help) without probable cause that a crime is being or has been committed? Furthermore, if they can, will they be held responsible for all costs that the innocent traveler incurs due to the unplanned detention (non-refundable plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc...)?
Only the police can detain someone - the TSA has no legal authority to detain, arrest, touch or tackle anybody. If they attempted to physically restrain you, and you're in a state which gives free reign to protect yourself, you could fight back against them and be able to claim you were acting in self defense.

If they want to hold you, they must call the police. If they can't find the police, you're free to walk away - although you're not necessarily free to walk away into the sterile area.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 9:55 am
  #48  
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As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
Your reading assignment for today is: "A Nation of Sheep" by Andrew P. Napolitano as well as Daniel Solov
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 9:55 am
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OK-So the BDO calls over an airport police officer to speak with you because you are being 'uncooperative'. I know that you are required to identify yourself to an LEO; however, can the BDO use the officer to try to compel you to answer their questions upon threat of detention should you refuse to do so? Can the BDO get your personal information from the LEO without your consent and use it without your consent?

I know that may sound ridiculous, but no more so than a total stranger expecting me to engage their questions if I choose not to.

I can't wait for someone to take this to court and challenge it. I'd really love to see a BDO (or rogue LEO) get held financially responsible for a person's ruined travel plans. I don't know about you all, but I often book the non-refundable rooms because they can be quite a bit cheaper.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 9:55 am
  #50  
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OK, I understand what you're getting at. I really do. But, isn't the TSA's purpose of an agency to SCREEN us for dangerous items? In the 1990's, nobody seemed to care if you were acting suspiciously at the airport, as long as you were screened. Everyone's different, and what is suspicious to someone may not be suspicious to others. How exactly do you constitute suspicious behavior?

Why is it even TSA's business of why someone is in a bad mood or stressed? Airports are stressful environment--so is travelling. This is not 1984 - this is America. We all have a right to not have to explain ourselves.

Please don't give us that "it's a different world after 9/11" crap... please give us an logical explanation WHY behavioral screening is so important, and how it prevents against a plane being taken down, as long as the person in question doesn't have any dangerous items? And, what does TSA consider suspicious behavior? Nervousness? Tics? People with OCD? People with other disorders or disabilities that doesn't make them look "sheep-like"? And, no, it's not SSI - or at least I hope not.

Originally Posted by tmspa
It is important to understand someone's story when they are being screened due to heightened behavioral cues, regardless of destination. Any plane can be brought down in the U.S., whether it is a domestic flight or not.

Even though dangerous item are not present, other items that don't fit the person or their story might be. Also, even if there are not explosives or other suspicious items, what is their intent? It has been long discussed that one person could easily create a diversion or they could be covertly traveling with someone who is carrying the dangerous items.

Finally, there is always a reason that they are feeling stressed, legitimate or not. As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 9:56 am
  #51  
 
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Originally Posted by tmspa
As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
Guess what, Comrade, I don't have anything to worry about, period. Full stop.

Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.
Sure:

SPOT: Anything

Me: "I refuse to speak to a SPOTer. Get a LEO or leave me alone."

Been there, done that, flown without having my name reported to the DOT. Will continue.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 10:03 am
  #52  
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Finally, there is always a reason that they are feeling stressed, legitimate or not. As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.
...Insert "Das SS" for "the TSO"....hmmm, sounds REAL familiar.....
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 10:43 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
Those 'several' FTers are wrong. How about this: you ask me questions, I say it's none of your business, you try and hold me, then I demand your manager calls my airline GSC, who then clears me through the checkpoint (with or without your objection), after we speak privately.

I will speak to the GSC, as they represent the owners of the property and equipment I am using, but I am under no obligation to answer TSA questions, nor will I.

Just screen my bag and stop trying to pretend your agency knows what it's doing - a 4hr class to learn behavior profiling is so beyond laughable, it would be like teaching a bunch of 4th graders calculus and physics and expecting them to engineer our next Mars landing.
I haven't even seen a GSC since 2003. And even then, most of them would consult us before clearing anything. I'm not sure that they would, or even have the authority to, clear you during the screening process.

At MSP, the GSCs are from the airlines and don't represent the owners of the property. The airport is own by the Metropolitan Airports Comission.

4 hour class? That's funny. Where did you hear that?
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 10:55 am
  #54  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy1369
OK, I understand what you're getting at. I really do. But, isn't the TSA's purpose of an agency to SCREEN us for dangerous items? In the 1990's, nobody seemed to care if you were acting suspiciously at the airport, as long as you were screened. Everyone's different, and what is suspicious to someone may not be suspicious to others. How exactly do you constitute suspicious behavior?
Yes, everyone's different and visual observation can be subjective. That is why we work with, at least, one other BDO. Each time we make an observation, we confer with our partner/s. This protects you and us.

Originally Posted by Andy1369
Why is it even TSA's business of why someone is in a bad mood or stressed? Airports are stressful environment--so is travelling. This is not 1984 - this is America. We all have a right to not have to explain ourselves.

Please don't give us that "it's a different world after 9/11" crap... please give us an logical explanation WHY behavioral screening is so important, and how it prevents against a plane being taken down, as long as the person in question doesn't have any dangerous items? And, what does TSA consider suspicious behavior? Nervousness? Tics? People with OCD? People with other disorders or disabilities that doesn't make them look "sheep-like"? And, no, it's not SSI - or at least I hope not.
Actually, yes, it is SSI. However, much of the research involved could be found via Google if you are so inclined. Specific behaviors may or may not be found. There is, at least, 50 years worth of research into observing behavior related to deception. When someone fears being discovered in a group, their fear manifest into involuntary, autonomic responses.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 11:41 am
  #55  
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Originally Posted by tmspa
I haven't even seen a GSC since 2003. And even then, most of them would consult us before clearing anything. I'm not sure that they would, or even have the authority to, clear you during the screening process.
Are you suggesting GSC's don't exist because you didn't see one since 2003? They are there - unfortunately, most customers don't know to call them when they get into a conflict with the TSA, otherwise you'd see them there quite often.

Of course the GSC will speak to the TSA supervisor before deciding anything - they're going to listen to both sides of the story. They have the authority to move someone through the checkpoint and clear them to fly, even over the objections of the TSA, but they don't have the authority to clear a prohibited item or get a customer out of being screened.

At MSP, the GSCs are from the airlines and don't represent the owners of the property. The airport is own by the Metropolitan Airports Comission.
The owners of the property I'm speaking of are the airlines - I fly on their property, therefore they are the last and only authority to decide if I fly (unless I'm on the no fly list) based on regulations and their assessment of my fitness to fly (sober, non-combative, not-dangerous, suspicious, etc.). However, the Airport Director is also involved, as I use their property too - which is a good point, since there have been cases of the TSA (and cops) attempting to banish customers from the terminal when they lack the authority to do so - only the AD's office can do that. Since you're from Tampa, the recent nazi case is a good example of a the TSA removing a customer from the terminal building without authority to do so, unless the AD's office requested it.

4 hour class? That's funny. Where did you hear that?
That number has been tossed around everywhere - by media, TSA and insiders alike. Perhaps you'd like to share the amount of SPOT-specific training the TSA has provided you?
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 12:55 pm
  #56  
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My issue is having to take time out of my day to deal with some GS-10/11-equivalent amateur psychologist. Especially one who thinks he/she is highly trained.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 12:56 pm
  #57  
 
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"So, where are you traveling to today?"

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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 1:02 pm
  #58  
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I'm not a huge fan of newspapers, but this article seems pretty well researched. This author claims it's 4 days of training with some OJT thrown in..

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=2985
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 1:31 pm
  #59  
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Originally Posted by dd992emo
I'm not a huge fan of newspapers, but this article seems pretty well researched. This author claims it's 4 days of training with some OJT thrown in..

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=2985
Sorry, maybe it was 4 days and not 4 hours - but there is no practical difference in result. It takes months of intensive multi-disciplinary training to even prep someone for the field training and experience necessary to be reasonably good at behavior detection.
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Old Feb 25, 2008 | 3:23 pm
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Originally Posted by bocastephen

The owners of the property I'm speaking of are the airlines - I fly on their property, therefore they are the last and only authority to decide if I fly (unless I'm on the no fly list) based on regulations and their assessment of my fitness to fly (sober, non-combative, not-dangerous, suspicious, etc.). However, the Airport Director is also involved, as I use their property too - which is a good point, since there have been cases of the TSA (and cops) attempting to banish customers from the terminal when they lack the authority to do so - only the AD's office can do that. Since you're from Tampa, the recent nazi case is a good example of a the TSA removing a customer from the terminal building without authority to do so, unless the AD's office requested it.
I'm not from Tampa, I'm from MSP (Minneapolis, MN). At MSP, the Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) owns the airport. The MAC employs their very own Airport Police Department (APD). The APD has the authority to remove someone from the airport if they feel that they are loitering or have no official business being on their property. The airlines don't have the ultimate say.

Originally Posted by bocastephen
That number has been tossed around everywhere - by media, TSA and insiders alike. Perhaps you'd like to share the amount of SPOT-specific training the TSA has provided you?
I have taken approximately 40-50 hours of initial classroom training, 24 hours of OJT with an experienced trainer (prior to being certified), and spent the first several weeks with an experienced BDO. Since then I have received ongoing classroom training from TSA and other federal and local agency on document recognition and behavior pattern recognition. Along with that, continuous online training and learning from my peers success or mistakes.

I have been doing the job for about a year and feel that I have a well-developed skill. I spend 40 hours a week observing thousands of people, I now have a database of normal behavior and abnormal behavior. I have recognized patterns and can tell you a great deal about someone prior to engaging them in conversation. I learn something new everyday and continue to develop my skills.
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