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Mar 7, 2006 | 8:39 pm
#61
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Originally Posted by dd992emo
Uh...beats me. Why do you have to pay to get into a major league baseball game, but not a little league baseball game? Different products?
Mar 8, 2006 | 4:17 am
#62
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daw617: thanks, now I get your point. 
I have no idea whether they have ID cards in Afghanistan or not.
As I read it, erik was saying there was "bitter discussion" about ID cards in "some European countries" because "the Germans implemented...[a compulsory ID card scheme] in '40-'45".
My question was "which European countries are we talking about here that have these bitter discussions because of experiences of Nazi government/occupation?". I suppose I could have been more explicit.
As far as I remember (and I am not an expert or anything), the UK and Ireland are the only countries in Europe not to have ID cards. Everywhere else it seems to be a dead issue, isn't it? There is a debate in the UK about whether they should be introduced but that's not because of a collective memory about any ausweis because the Nazis never issued them in the UK and in any case there was a domestically-implemented ID card.
(afaics, ausweis wasn't exactly the same as an id card anyway and i would be surprised if there hadn't been id papers in most of the nazi occupied countries prior to 1940 anyway)
Originally Posted by GUWonder
The countries "we" "liberated" have compulsory ID cards? Not everywhere. Most Afghans wouldn't go for it if it came from the national government or outside.
As I read it, erik was saying there was "bitter discussion" about ID cards in "some European countries" because "the Germans implemented...[a compulsory ID card scheme] in '40-'45".
My question was "which European countries are we talking about here that have these bitter discussions because of experiences of Nazi government/occupation?". I suppose I could have been more explicit.
As far as I remember (and I am not an expert or anything), the UK and Ireland are the only countries in Europe not to have ID cards. Everywhere else it seems to be a dead issue, isn't it? There is a debate in the UK about whether they should be introduced but that's not because of a collective memory about any ausweis because the Nazis never issued them in the UK and in any case there was a domestically-implemented ID card.
(afaics, ausweis wasn't exactly the same as an id card anyway and i would be surprised if there hadn't been id papers in most of the nazi occupied countries prior to 1940 anyway)
Mar 8, 2006 | 5:17 am
#63
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Originally Posted by secretbunnyboy
There is a debate in the UK about whether they should be introduced but that's not because of a collective memory about any ausweis because the Nazis never issued them in the UK and in any case there was a domestically-implemented ID card.
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Mar 8, 2006 | 6:57 am
#64
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Originally Posted by daw617
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These data protection sensitivities may have subsided somewhat. I don't know whether many Europeans still receive unitemized phone bills
These data protection sensitivities may have subsided somewhat. I don't know whether many Europeans still receive unitemized phone bills
Mar 8, 2006 | 7:06 am
#65
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Originally Posted by daw617
These data protection sensitivities may have subsided somewhat. I don't know whether many Europeans still receive unitemized phone bills -- but for many decades, phone bills in many countries were not itemized for exactly this reason. It was considered good civic hygiene to avoid unnecessarily establishing systems of records that could be used to facilitate the rise of a police state.
In Switzerland it's all itemized by default.
Mar 8, 2006 | 7:10 am
#66
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Originally Posted by StewieMac
I think that the debate currently playing out here (in the UK) is very similar to the one in this thread: sensible people who see it as a very expensive intrusion into individual's privacy and a totally unnecessary extension of government powers vs. the idiots who actually think that it's going to do *anything* to prevent terrorism or benefit fraud. [can you guess which side I'm on ? ]
]
Oh, and liked the signature ^ ^
Mar 8, 2006 | 7:36 am
#67
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Originally Posted by secretbunnyboy
daw617: thanks, now I get your point.
As I read it, erik was saying there was "bitter discussion" about ID cards in "some European countries" because "the Germans implemented...[a compulsory ID card scheme] in '40-'45".
My question was "which European countries are we talking about here that have these bitter discussions because of experiences of Nazi government/occupation?". I suppose I could have been more explicit.
As I read it, erik was saying there was "bitter discussion" about ID cards in "some European countries" because "the Germans implemented...[a compulsory ID card scheme] in '40-'45".
My question was "which European countries are we talking about here that have these bitter discussions because of experiences of Nazi government/occupation?". I suppose I could have been more explicit.
If I am correct only Belgium, Spain, and France have a blanket ID requirement at this time. All others have limited requirements (though these can still go quite far (e.g. you have to show it to a police officer when asked).
Mar 8, 2006 | 8:56 am
#68
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If you would like a scary, and fairly realistic example of what this COULD lead to (not likely, but possible), read a scifi book called "If This Goes On" by Robert Heinlein.
It is set in the future (perhaps about 100 years) and describes how a candidate for president got the vote -- with 63% of the registered voters voting (registered voters being less than half the population). This sort of thing has already happened, yes?
Then, there were no elections the next 4 years.
The president ran on a religious platform (can you see that happening in the US soon? I can.) and won. He instituted the Interregnum (or Interregnum of the Prophets), which was a theocratic and totalitarian government that prevailed in the United States, until overthrown by the Cabal. It was founded by that president, demagogue Nehemiah Scudder and perpetuated by successors who were more self-serving politicians than religious fanatics, but who used religion to keep the populace under control.
The format for this system was already in place, and kept that way with psychologists and mass media, keeping the populace in place through fear and propaganda. Witch hunts of rebels were frequent.
It's scary, it's possible, and the forms are in place, if they comes anyone willing to abuse them.
They had ID checks at every city, airflight, toll road, etc.
It is set in the future (perhaps about 100 years) and describes how a candidate for president got the vote -- with 63% of the registered voters voting (registered voters being less than half the population). This sort of thing has already happened, yes?
Then, there were no elections the next 4 years.
The president ran on a religious platform (can you see that happening in the US soon? I can.) and won. He instituted the Interregnum (or Interregnum of the Prophets), which was a theocratic and totalitarian government that prevailed in the United States, until overthrown by the Cabal. It was founded by that president, demagogue Nehemiah Scudder and perpetuated by successors who were more self-serving politicians than religious fanatics, but who used religion to keep the populace under control.
The format for this system was already in place, and kept that way with psychologists and mass media, keeping the populace in place through fear and propaganda. Witch hunts of rebels were frequent.
It's scary, it's possible, and the forms are in place, if they comes anyone willing to abuse them.
They had ID checks at every city, airflight, toll road, etc.
Mar 8, 2006 | 9:49 am
#70
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Originally Posted by fly4miles
Shop at Von's, Safeway, Albertson's and they all require you to sign up for their club card to get the discounts. Same deal, they track your spending habits. I have all the store club cards on my key ring but refuse to provide any personal data. It's nobody's business what I buy.
Mar 8, 2006 | 9:56 am
#71
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Of course in the time period between the present and when US airlines routinely (and widely) started demanding presentation of ID for domestic travel hasn't even covered close to two decades. And by the time a similar time period passes from the present going forward, we're going to be living a de facto public life whether we want our privacy or not -- unless something is legally done about this.
Mar 8, 2006 | 11:48 am
#72
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Originally Posted by secretbunnyboy
I have no idea whether they have ID cards in Afghanistan or not.
Some in the Taliban wanted a "national" ID, but they were against photographs and so came to love fingerprints.
[However, most Afghans would not comply.] If they would have had the means, who knows if they would have skipped straight to implanted RFIDs (or the like).And in present-day Europe, those places that require ID be carried have the police use such rules as a basis to harass co-citizens who are ethnic minorities. And since the police have a "right" to demand ID, they use that to harass minorities. (If the citizens were members of the dominant ethnic majorities, they'd rarely get asked by the police for such.)
I prefer no ID requirements for domestic travel within a Union, including within the Union that is the United States.
Mar 8, 2006 | 12:00 pm
#73
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Originally Posted by secretbunnyboy
(afaics, ausweis wasn't exactly the same as an id card anyway and i would be surprised if there hadn't been id papers in most of the nazi occupied countries prior to 1940 anyway)
National ID requirements are the product of insecurity.
Mar 8, 2006 | 5:27 pm
#74
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Originally Posted by themicah
Revenue protection. If they didn't require ID, anybody could fly on anybody else's ticket, and that would kill the airlines' entire pricing model.
For example, you or I could buy a bunch of $200 transcons and sell them for $300 to last-minute business travelers who needed a seat.
For example, you or I could buy a bunch of $200 transcons and sell them for $300 to last-minute business travelers who needed a seat.
Mar 9, 2006 | 5:45 pm
#75
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Originally Posted by daw617
Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose that ten years from now, the street corners are rife with police checkpoints, and the police demand that all pedestrians must present their "papers" for inspection and must submit to a search of their person. Will you tell me that these ID checks are perfectly voluntarily? After all, if I want to avoid the "voluntary" ID checks, all I have to do is never leave my home. After all, I'm perfectly free to stay in my home my entire life; if the government deems that by leaving my house, I have implicitly consented to allowing the police to search me at any time, for any reason, well, what possible grounds for unhappiness could I possibly have? How can this be an imposition when I am perfectly free never to leave my home?
I hope this thought experiment illustrates the flaw in your argument, by magnifying the illogic enough that it is blatantly obvious that such logic leads to absurd conclusions.
The point is that "just don't fly" isn't a meaningful option for many of us. And it's not "just don't fly" -- if you want to avoid ID checks, don't take the bus; don't take the train; don't drive. What does that leave? The alternatives are dwindling day by day.
Perhaps you are prepared to argue that if I want to fly, then I have to "voluntarily" relinquish my civil liberties. Personally, I find that notion obnoxious and unjust. (If showing ID actually were effective at preventing terrorism, then that would be different. But right now the ID checks are pointless security theatre.)
I hope this thought experiment illustrates the flaw in your argument, by magnifying the illogic enough that it is blatantly obvious that such logic leads to absurd conclusions.
The point is that "just don't fly" isn't a meaningful option for many of us. And it's not "just don't fly" -- if you want to avoid ID checks, don't take the bus; don't take the train; don't drive. What does that leave? The alternatives are dwindling day by day.
Perhaps you are prepared to argue that if I want to fly, then I have to "voluntarily" relinquish my civil liberties. Personally, I find that notion obnoxious and unjust. (If showing ID actually were effective at preventing terrorism, then that would be different. But right now the ID checks are pointless security theatre.)
Do you drive? I am forced to plaster a government issued metal plate with a unique code on the front and rear of my vehicle. This code identifies a file in a government office that contains information about me. Not only does it identify me as the vehicle owner but also what company I buy insurance from, how long I have had it. It is also linked to a seperate file about me. A file that contains in depth information about my identity. They even have a photo of me. Any any police officer has access to all of this information at any time.
All this becouse I left my house. But I don't want the airline to know who I am. OOoooh, BIG SECRET.