Ah narrow minds! The groping is a dead issue. You arent groped either anymore. As far as profile goes, it is a JUDGEMENT call.

Retaliation is something that is done to get back at someone. TSA isnt getting back at anyone. IF your shoes are deemed through interpretation or judgement, necessary of additional screening, then you get sent for the screening.

IF that is what you believe then so be it, that is why you are not in the TSA and I am.
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I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm not in the TSA because I can't take the pay cut and I have a lot better things to do with my time than provide flaccid window dressing to a problem that you are doing nothing to solve.
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Just ask the infamous shoe bomber why he thought it would work, just ask the EOD people that took the shoes for examination. I have seen the videos on it, it would have worked had he had time to light it.[/QUOTE]

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Come on, sonny. Let's all grow up and get ourselves into the real world here. The TSA screeners, when "suggesting" or "recommending" that you take off your shoes and you don't, you're going to be deliberately inconveniencced because you did not follow the dictums of the reichstag.

I was at the shoe carnival at DEN and was told that I had a choice between taking my shoes off in the main line, or taking them off at secondary. THERE IS A MUCH PUBLICIZED STATEMENT FROM NORMAN MINETA STATING VERY CLEARLY THAT SHOE REMOVAL IS VOLUNTARY, so are you now going to sit there and defend a screener making up his own policy, causing someone with signed medical documentation of a back injury so severe it requires schedule 3 narcotics to manage pain to writhe in pain taking his shoes off?

It's retaliatory. Some (not all, but some) screeners are running their own little fiefdom. And unless you have a lot of time (which no one does at DEN) you'll miss your flight. Now that my back is cleared up, I make a big damn deal about taking them off and take up as much time and space as I can putting them back on. One mouth-breathing screener at EWR told me "Move down, you're holding up the line" and I looked right at her and told this gum-cracking reprobate "If we weren't forced to disrobe, this wouldn't be anissue, you want the shoes off, deal with it, lady."

If other flyers want to be ordered around like cattle, that's their choice. America was founded ont he concept of freedoms and rights, and the TSA is violating both on a regular basis.

"I have seen the videos". Wow, is that what you folks do behind the doors of the training rooms? WATCH VIDEOS? Perhaps they could show you videos on:

1) Not cracking gum in front of passengers
2) Getting all TSA screeners to learn to close their mouths all the way when not speaking. Honestly, some of you look like you're missing a chromosome.
3) STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT WHEN YOUR NEXT BREAK IS. If you were REALLY all that concerned abotu security, you'd pay attention to what you are doing and stop obsessing over your next break. I have not gone throguh ONE TSA check point in the last year and a half where I did not hear at least one of you fine, fine, highly trained "professionals" grousing about breaks, schedules, or supervisors. And by the say, let's look at the term "professioanal" here. A DOCTOR is a professional. An ATTORNEY is a professional. When was the last time you ears your physician or your lawyer complain that they were late for break, or cracked gum in your face?

Reality stinks. You may in fact be the one person in the TSA that follows the rules and acts in a truly professional manner, but the rest of the crew of a 5 billion dollar joke. If this is the case, I hope your high standards of safety and comportment rub off on everyone else with the white shirts and sewn-on badges, becasue there is a LOT of work to do.

Just curious, if the TSA crew is so incredibly professional, why did we hear about felons having to be fired from the ranks, and I wonder how many people now protecting us from our shoes were on public assistance before this giant jobs program got launched?

The point of complaining is to make it known that we don't agree with the haraSSSSment that is the shoe carnival. It doesn't matter that it takes as long as removing shoes would, because the principle at stake is that things like the shoe carnival do nothing to improve our safety and simply act as an inconvenience to travelers.

Personally, I never have the time at IAD to stop to fill out a form OR to go through SSSS, so I remove my shoes--it doesn't matter how early I get to IAD, I'll always be pushing it getting to the gate and don't have time to mess with complaints or SSSS

[QUOTE]So while I'm waiting for the massage and wand, a manager comes over with a complaint form. I asked her what the story was, pointed out my shoes, etc. and while I'm doing this, the first (referring agent) steps in and says "Sir, you weren't selected for shoes. It is just continuous, random screening."

I hope you realize you were lied to. I would have added that to the complaint form.

[QUOTE=FliesWay2Much]In legalese, the term is "pretext", basically substituting a lawful reason for an illegal reason.

To exerda and others who sometimes comply with the remove shoes order and other times choose not to comply, if you are wearing the proper shoes, have you ever kept "score"? Do you never get secondaried (providing you've played by the rules and bought your ticket 3 years years in advance, etc., etc., etc.) and do you always get secondaried when you refuse to remove your shoes?

It would be interesting if some FF's would take up the challenge to keep a written record, with a photograph of your shoes with a ruler showing exact size of the heel/sole, and at some point in time, send that record to the TSA, your Congresspeople and local news media.

So are you saying that we should just give up? Flying should be a calculated risk?

The suggestion that you remove your shoes comes from several things. One, you could be reminded to remove your shoes based on two things. The thickness of the sole and the other is the chance that it has a metal shank. The thing that comes into play here is that you are outside the sterile area and while being there means that you are going in. IT doesnt mean that TSA can force you to remove your shoes. This is a choice. IF you are suggested to, to remove your shoes and you dont, you get sent down to be checked. There are screeners that suggest to everyone that they remove their shoes. This isnt the goal of the agency though but if you are asked to remove them and you dont, a reason for secondary screening becomes apparent. That reason is that you may be trying to hide something. THere is a sign out of the checkpoint that says that all shoes must be screened. There are three types of screening: Visual, xray and secondary. Secondary includes handwand and etd swab. So as a screener makes a judgement call during the visual to suggest that you remove your shoes, you counter with a reason not to. The screener counters with the other choice because of your choice.

You dont have to take them off in secondary either, unless they cause an alarm of the handwand or the ETD. The question is of course how the person with the documentation handled the situation.

Its not retaliatory, its reactionary! Viva la difference. As far as time goes, why was the person so late? You are aware that it is recommended that you arrive 90 minutes or more before your flight. You are late? Its not TSA who's at fault.

Show me where it says that you have the right to fly in US constitution?

I have managed to ignore most of your insults till this point. You arent showing anything by name calling other than your limited intellectual resources. As far as professional goes, the problem doesnt lay with the front line, it extends up the chain of supervision. TSA hires people of all mannerisms. IF that offends you, then walk to your next trip destination. As far as chatter about breaks is concerned, please pity the screeners that have to deal with the likes of whiners like you for hours on end.

That is correct. Put up or shut up. WYSIWYG this is how airport security is and you are aware of it so take it or leave it. An attempt to make ammends for all your snide remarks? A little too late! I cant get in with the crowd of amazingly adept supervision because I tell it like it is.

Ah another cheap shot from the bleachers. Well if you had followed the hearings that were on the subject that you mention, you would know that the ramp up to meet the required staffing over ran the capacity of the agency doing the background checks. As far as a jobs program is concerned, I was working at IBM making very good money before the IT industry bottomed out. I was on unemployment for 8 months before TSA called to hire me. You cant judge a screener by the shoes that he wore before he joined the ranks of those people patriotic enough to do something to try and make a difference.

Did you call BS at that point?

All of life is one big calculated risk.

"Physical travel and the First Amendment are inextricably intertwined.* If you can't travel, then how can you exercise your right to Assemble?* You can't Associate either, because you won't be able to get anywhere.* Your right to Free Speech is also affected.* You can say what you want, just not at that conference you wanted to attend but couldn't because you weren't allowed to get on a plane. " - John Gilmore http://www.papersplease.org/gilmore/case.html

Ask the residents of Alaska and Hawaii about the ability to redress their legislators (both Federal and State) without flying on an airplane.

Just because there were no airplanes in 1789 does not mean they are not covered by the U.S. Constitution.

Much as in the way that the freedoms insured by the 2nd Amendment do not only apply to 18th-century muskets and pistols.

"The right to be let alone is the underlying principle of the Constitution's Bill of Rights." - Erwin N. Griswold (U.S. Solicitor General 1967-1973)

OH the IRONY!!!!!

If we can't judge a screener by the shoes he wore, how does TSA dare to judge us for the shoes we wear?

People patriotic enough to do something to try to make a difference my .... The federal government's solution to 9/11 was to make all screeners federal employees ... like just the mere acting of being paid by the government would magically resolve the security problems.

Saying you're patriotic just because you work for the federal government is ludicrous. Does that mean that federal janitors and cafeteria workers are patriotic because they make a difference by serving lunch and cleaning the toilets of those who truly are making a difference?

If TSA really wants to make a difference, they first need to make a difference in how people see them. They need to make a difference in actually making people safe (most of which is done behind the scenes that we CAN'T see), and not making them feel harassed. If you stood on a street corner and asked random people what their least favorite part of traveling was, I'd bet dollars to donuts that they'd say security.

Nope, Opinion. Plain and simple.



When someone other than my wife puts their hands all over my torso and belt line, it is groping. PERIOD

Typical TSA copout. The criteria is 1". If the screener is not smart enough to determine 1" of thickness, they should be fired. There is no judgement at all, it's either 1" or it is not.


The soles of my shoes are 3/4" thick. If I am sent to secondary by a screener not smart enough to determine 1" of thickness, it is retaliatory.


You are correct, I do not work for the TSA. I know far to much about REAL security to lower myself to that level. Anyone with one ounce of security knowledge knows that there are many more places to hide explosives than the soles of shoes. Focusing on shoes and defending that focus shows you and your agency to be frauds.

Just like every good lemming should?????

> Let me say right off the bat that TSA doesnt
> retailiate against you for not removing your
> shoes.

eyecue: That is not the case in IND - when you don't take your shoes off - secondary automatically and it would appear its retaliation. It makes me sick. Happens at Terminal D (US/UA) and Terminal B/C.

Correct. Two weeks ago at IND, Ididn't want to remove shoes and sent to secondary. After being cleared, a supervisior came by to ask me if anything was wrong. We chatted about the shoe carnival and I showed him my shoes and point-blank asked him if they fit the profile. He stated that I should not have been singled out for my shoes alone. Period.

It must just be easier for screeners and not involve using perhaps non-existent gray matter to tell everyone to take off their shoes.

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