Is there a Safety/Security Justification for REAL ID to Get on Commercial Flights?
Feb 28, 2020, 9:27 am
#46
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Since the fall of 2001, I have flown on common carriers domestically or internationally without showing any ID within/from airports in several countries, all without going out of my way .... so they really are far removed from being a unicorn.
I have flown domestically or internationally without showing any ID when flying scheduled commercial carriers from airports in three countries this year.
Not really. Even the man who was the real push behind the REAL ID Act had to make sure not to rock his own constituents and fellow Midwesterners too hard over a "federal government takeover" so as to keep himself in office, something he has done very well. [It's only in 2019 when the real REAL ID pusher finally announced his retirement from Congress in 2021 (and the related desire to not run for re-election in the fall of 2020).] This was the way to try to end up with a de facto national ID database capability and a more harmonized ID-based monitoring/investigation capability without rocking too much of the boat and creating another massive federal government bureaucracy while doing so. The "slowly boil the frog" strategy and "place the blame/burden on the states" isn't a complete flop, even as it really should invite questions why "REAL ID" is necessary for security to fly domestically when we have been able to do well while flying without it for well over a decade.
I have flown domestically or internationally without showing any ID when flying scheduled commercial carriers from airports in three countries this year.
Not really. Even the man who was the real push behind the REAL ID Act had to make sure not to rock his own constituents and fellow Midwesterners too hard over a "federal government takeover" so as to keep himself in office, something he has done very well. [It's only in 2019 when the real REAL ID pusher finally announced his retirement from Congress in 2021 (and the related desire to not run for re-election in the fall of 2020).] This was the way to try to end up with a de facto national ID database capability and a more harmonized ID-based monitoring/investigation capability without rocking too much of the boat and creating another massive federal government bureaucracy while doing so. The "slowly boil the frog" strategy and "place the blame/burden on the states" isn't a complete flop, even as it really should invite questions why "REAL ID" is necessary for security to fly domestically when we have been able to do well while flying without it for well over a decade.
Last edited by GUWonder; Feb 28, 2020 at 9:33 am
Feb 28, 2020, 5:18 pm
#48
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Since the fall of 2001, I have flown on common carriers domestically or internationally without showing any ID within/from airports in several countries, all without going out of my way .... so they really are far removed from being a unicorn.
I have flown domestically or internationally without showing any ID when flying scheduled commercial carriers from airports in three countries this year.
Not really. Even the man who was the real push behind the REAL ID Act had to make sure not to rock his own constituents and fellow Midwesterners too hard over a "federal government takeover" so as to keep himself in office, something he has done very well. [It's only in 2019 when the real REAL ID pusher finally announced his retirement from Congress in 2021 (and the related desire to not run for re-election in the fall of 2020).] This was the way to try to end up with a de facto national ID database capability and a more harmonized ID-based monitoring/investigation capability without rocking too much of the boat and creating another massive federal government bureaucracy while doing so. The "slowly boil the frog" strategy and "place the blame/burden on the states" isn't a complete flop, even as it really should invite questions why "REAL ID" is necessary for security to fly domestically when we have been able to do well while flying without it for well over a decade.
I have flown domestically or internationally without showing any ID when flying scheduled commercial carriers from airports in three countries this year.
Not really. Even the man who was the real push behind the REAL ID Act had to make sure not to rock his own constituents and fellow Midwesterners too hard over a "federal government takeover" so as to keep himself in office, something he has done very well. [It's only in 2019 when the real REAL ID pusher finally announced his retirement from Congress in 2021 (and the related desire to not run for re-election in the fall of 2020).] This was the way to try to end up with a de facto national ID database capability and a more harmonized ID-based monitoring/investigation capability without rocking too much of the boat and creating another massive federal government bureaucracy while doing so. The "slowly boil the frog" strategy and "place the blame/burden on the states" isn't a complete flop, even as it really should invite questions why "REAL ID" is necessary for security to fly domestically when we have been able to do well while flying without it for well over a decade.
Feb 28, 2020, 5:19 pm
#49
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This is a joke, right? The primary problem with the so-called Real ID is that it endangers the flying public. TSA clerks currently miss 95% of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries because they focus so hard on IDs, being alert to whether or not someone is whistling, juice, breast milk, cupcakes, and purses with embroidered gun designs. Adding a new requirement to have an ID that meets specific requirements will lead the TSA clerks to pay attention to yet another requirement that is totally irrelevant to aviation security, and may well result in the TSA missing not 95% of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries, but 100%. In that case, if a terrorist threat ever arises, aviation will be even more vulnerable than it currently is.
Last edited by Carl Johnson; Feb 28, 2020 at 5:30 pm
Feb 28, 2020, 5:28 pm
#50
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Well - I really don't have a moment right now to research and post the relevant quotes - but there's no "infringement" as you can easily charter a small plane and fly all sorts of things everywhere with nary an ID.
But if you want to use a carrier that benefits from federal funding - as anything using a "real" airport is doing - then you have to play by their rules. It's pretty much right at the top of their rules: If they give you money to not go bankrupt, then you'll have to follow their rules. Which includes ID. Cheap blackmail? Maybe. But that's how it is.
You're truly free to travel by car, too, but there are rules. It's the cost of having paved roads and safe vehicles that result in having federal rules. Ain't no going back now.
It may be helpful (or infuriating) to realize that practically all other countries require ID to fly domestically. In the UK, a passport is recommended for DOMESTIC flights. Many countries (deregulation notwithstanding) still operate airlines primarily owned and managed by their government, and they certainly require ID. It's not about "revenue theft" in those areas. If you never travel abroad, then of course, you really don't care. The US is the last bastion of hold-outs of folks who feel some "bad thing" about carrying an ID.
Again, you do not have to get one. Only if you want to fly on a carrier that was bailed out by the gov't from an airport that was built by the gov't. That's not politics. It's just the facts of it.
But if you want to use a carrier that benefits from federal funding - as anything using a "real" airport is doing - then you have to play by their rules. It's pretty much right at the top of their rules: If they give you money to not go bankrupt, then you'll have to follow their rules. Which includes ID. Cheap blackmail? Maybe. But that's how it is.
You're truly free to travel by car, too, but there are rules. It's the cost of having paved roads and safe vehicles that result in having federal rules. Ain't no going back now.
It may be helpful (or infuriating) to realize that practically all other countries require ID to fly domestically. In the UK, a passport is recommended for DOMESTIC flights. Many countries (deregulation notwithstanding) still operate airlines primarily owned and managed by their government, and they certainly require ID. It's not about "revenue theft" in those areas. If you never travel abroad, then of course, you really don't care. The US is the last bastion of hold-outs of folks who feel some "bad thing" about carrying an ID.
Again, you do not have to get one. Only if you want to fly on a carrier that was bailed out by the gov't from an airport that was built by the gov't. That's not politics. It's just the facts of it.
Is it helpful to realize you are spouting off things you absolutely know nothing about? Would you like to list "all other countries" you know about that require ID for domestic flights?
Exactly, Often1 - the "no fly" list is checked upon reservation. The TSA is just confirming that the person who made the reservation is the person getting on the plane.
There is a no-fly list because if you've shown a tendency to abuse the airlines in the past, you're no longer welcome.
There is a no-fly list because if you've shown a tendency to abuse the airlines in the past, you're no longer welcome.
An airline can ban you, but that is different than a no-fly list. American cannot put you on the no-fly list so you cannot fly United, Southwest, etc.
Last edited by TWA884; Feb 28, 2020 at 10:31 pm Reason: FT Rule 14: Merge consecutive posts by the same member
Feb 28, 2020, 5:46 pm
#51
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That REAL ID hasn’t been abandoned and that more states have done what the federal government wants done with regard to state ID are signs that this REAL ID workaround to American hostility and distrust of the federal government and big federal government bureaucracy has worked. And it has worked at getting us closer to a de facto national ID system than was the case with state DLs before. It wasn’t too many decades back that there were still some Americans with valid DLs that didn’t even have photos on them, that some DLs were valid for even more than a decade and so on — the kind of things that frustrated fans of national identification systems or at least the “benefits” arising from such systems.
Feb 28, 2020, 6:04 pm
#52
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It’s about enabling a de facto national identification system by way of federal government-mandated setting of standards for the states, and it’s worked at doing just that.
That REAL ID hasn’t been abandoned and that more states have done what the federal government wants done with regard to state ID are signs that this REAL ID workaround to American hostility and distrust of the federal government and big federal government bureaucracy has worked. And it has worked at getting us closer to a de facto national ID system than was the case with state DLs before. It wasn’t too many decades back that there were still some Americans with valid DLs that didn’t even have photos on them, that some DLs were valid for even more than a decade and so on — the kind of things that frustrated fans of national identification systems or at least the “benefits” arising from such systems.
That REAL ID hasn’t been abandoned and that more states have done what the federal government wants done with regard to state ID are signs that this REAL ID workaround to American hostility and distrust of the federal government and big federal government bureaucracy has worked. And it has worked at getting us closer to a de facto national ID system than was the case with state DLs before. It wasn’t too many decades back that there were still some Americans with valid DLs that didn’t even have photos on them, that some DLs were valid for even more than a decade and so on — the kind of things that frustrated fans of national identification systems or at least the “benefits” arising from such systems.
I'm in PA so we were one of the last to go along with it. I just did all a couple of months ago and all it included was bringing backup docs to confirm my info was correct. They also made it clear that Real ID was not needed to drive, vote, get Fed benefits, etc. and if one already had a passport than it wasn't even needed to fly.
National ID is just a bridge too far.
Feb 28, 2020, 6:15 pm
#53
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It’s about enabling a de facto national identification system by way of federal government-mandated setting of standards for the states, and it’s worked at doing just that.
That REAL ID hasn’t been abandoned and that more states have done what the federal government wants done with regard to state ID are signs that this REAL ID workaround to American hostility and distrust of the federal government and big federal government bureaucracy has worked. And it has worked at getting us closer to a de facto national ID system than was the case with state DLs before. It wasn’t too many decades back that there were still some Americans with valid DLs that didn’t even have photos on them, that some DLs were valid for even more than a decade and so on — the kind of things that frustrated fans of national identification systems or at least the “benefits” arising from such systems.
That REAL ID hasn’t been abandoned and that more states have done what the federal government wants done with regard to state ID are signs that this REAL ID workaround to American hostility and distrust of the federal government and big federal government bureaucracy has worked. And it has worked at getting us closer to a de facto national ID system than was the case with state DLs before. It wasn’t too many decades back that there were still some Americans with valid DLs that didn’t even have photos on them, that some DLs were valid for even more than a decade and so on — the kind of things that frustrated fans of national identification systems or at least the “benefits” arising from such systems.
What’s been lost in discussion is that a Drivers License is just a permit to operate a motor vehicle. Prostituting that permit into a national ID is the issue and a serious freedom concern.
Feb 28, 2020, 6:25 pm
#54
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If this wasn’t working toward a de facto national identification system using the states’ resources, then why is DHS still pushing so hard to keep this thing going across the country? Obviously DHS and its backers believe there is a national gain to be had from this de facto national ID push. Otherwise, REAL ID wouldn’t have gotten this far.
People have been flying without REAL ID for the entire period since REAL ID was started by the retiring Congressman from WI, and yet it hasn’t been a massive security problem for domestic flights. The massive security problem is the TSA losing focus from trying to be more effective in searching for and interdicting prohibited weapons, explosives and incendiaries.
People have been flying without REAL ID for the entire period since REAL ID was started by the retiring Congressman from WI, and yet it hasn’t been a massive security problem for domestic flights. The massive security problem is the TSA losing focus from trying to be more effective in searching for and interdicting prohibited weapons, explosives and incendiaries.
Last edited by GUWonder; Feb 28, 2020 at 6:31 pm
Feb 28, 2020, 6:55 pm
#55
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I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
Feb 28, 2020, 7:04 pm
#56
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Late last year, I was a passenger in a car entering a military base. Since I have a non-enhanced WA DL, I presented my passport card; the gate guard then asked for my license (which is not a REAL ID-compliant document) because the passport card doesn't have a scannable barcode for this system.
Feb 28, 2020, 7:28 pm
#57
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That ship sailed years ago. The driver's license has been a de facto ID card for a few decades now, used for everything from buying alcohol to opening bank accounts.
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
I see the freedom issue as the continued escalation of government surveillance on the populace. States set the drivers permit standards to suit that state and the feds should have no say in the process. The matter of needing any form of ID to travel domestically troubles me on several fronts.
Feb 28, 2020, 7:51 pm
#58
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That ship sailed years ago. The driver's license has been a de facto ID card for a few decades now, used for everything from buying alcohol to opening bank accounts.
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
Mar 1, 2020, 7:01 am
#59
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Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer, nor do I have any legal training, education, or experience, so the opinions I state in any of my posts are purely an average lay person's opinions.
It's a national ID standard due to three facts:
A. The Real-ID Act mandates everything about issuance of a compliant ID card (including non-driver ID) - what information is collected, what information is retained, how long it's retained, what parts are stored directly on the card electronically, and what parts are printed on the card in human-readable form.
2. The Real-ID Act mandates that all of that information must be shared with all other states through linking of the states' databases.
D. Sharing of driver's information with the federal government is already mandated via an exception to the Driver's Privacy Protection Act of 1994, (18 U.S.C. § 2721).
The fact that the states are forking over the money, and doing the legwork, in no way negates the fact that they are acting at the behest of the federal government to collect, maintain, and disseminate a far wider dataset on every driver than has ever been collected before. In this case, the state MVAs are performing the same function for the de facto national ID standard that the private company IDEMIA/Identogo performs for PreCheck registration - information collection and identity verification. At the behest of the fed, which makes them federal government actors.
Also, sure, it's possible to board a plane without a Real-ID compliant ID, but not without further violation of your 4th Amendment right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure, through extensive searches of both your person and your effects. This is un-Constitutional on its face, IMHO, because it's applied unequally - have a Real-ID, no grope; don't have a Real-ID, get groped - and because lack of the special privileged class of documentation is not, IMHO, sufficient justification to use more invasive search methodologies than are used on those who DO have the special document. The search escalation is punitive, not triggered by any legitimate suspicion, and is thus an example of unequal treatment under the law.
This is exactly why the Real-ID requirement for boarding a plane is unjustified.
The freedom concern is not just about being able to identify ones self, it's also about wholesale collection of sensitive PII by the federal government without warrant, probably cause, or reasonable suspicion, with only the vaguest protections on personal privacy. It's also about the ability to track peoples' movements - again without warrant, probable cause, or reasonable suspicion - within the country. And it's about an infringement on the freedom of movement, requiring identity papers for any domestic travel by plane or car (remember, it is legally required in most states, if not all, that a driver's license be on their person any time they operate a motor vehicle).
Warrantless tracking of peoples' movement in their daily personal or business activities is, IMHO, a violation of the 4th Amendment right to be secure in our persons, houses, papers, and effects from government intrusion.
Real-ID may be fine for federal installations, but requiring it to board a privately owned aircraft is, IMHO, a way of tracking peoples' movements,and thus a violation of the 4th Amendment. In point of fact, I believe that any ID requirement mandated by the government to board a privately-owned aircraft is such a violation; Real-ID is simply a bigger and dangerouser violation.
Agreed. And not only should the fed have no say in the process, they should also have no access to any data collected by the states for licensing purposes, without a warrant.
I'm honestly trying to be fair to your point of view but there just no way possible it's anywhere close to de facto anything just because the Feds set some standards for the States to follow. And those standards are nothing more than added verification that the information on the existing State ID is valid.
I'm in PA so we were one of the last to go along with it. I just did all a couple of months ago and all it included was bringing backup docs to confirm my info was correct. They also made it clear that Real ID was not needed to drive, vote, get Fed benefits, etc. and if one already had a passport than it wasn't even needed to fly.
National ID is just a bridge too far.
I'm in PA so we were one of the last to go along with it. I just did all a couple of months ago and all it included was bringing backup docs to confirm my info was correct. They also made it clear that Real ID was not needed to drive, vote, get Fed benefits, etc. and if one already had a passport than it wasn't even needed to fly.
National ID is just a bridge too far.
A. The Real-ID Act mandates everything about issuance of a compliant ID card (including non-driver ID) - what information is collected, what information is retained, how long it's retained, what parts are stored directly on the card electronically, and what parts are printed on the card in human-readable form.
2. The Real-ID Act mandates that all of that information must be shared with all other states through linking of the states' databases.
D. Sharing of driver's information with the federal government is already mandated via an exception to the Driver's Privacy Protection Act of 1994, (18 U.S.C. § 2721).
The fact that the states are forking over the money, and doing the legwork, in no way negates the fact that they are acting at the behest of the federal government to collect, maintain, and disseminate a far wider dataset on every driver than has ever been collected before. In this case, the state MVAs are performing the same function for the de facto national ID standard that the private company IDEMIA/Identogo performs for PreCheck registration - information collection and identity verification. At the behest of the fed, which makes them federal government actors.
Also, sure, it's possible to board a plane without a Real-ID compliant ID, but not without further violation of your 4th Amendment right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure, through extensive searches of both your person and your effects. This is un-Constitutional on its face, IMHO, because it's applied unequally - have a Real-ID, no grope; don't have a Real-ID, get groped - and because lack of the special privileged class of documentation is not, IMHO, sufficient justification to use more invasive search methodologies than are used on those who DO have the special document. The search escalation is punitive, not triggered by any legitimate suspicion, and is thus an example of unequal treatment under the law.
This is exactly why the Real-ID requirement for boarding a plane is unjustified.
That ship sailed years ago. The driver's license has been a de facto ID card for a few decades now, used for everything from buying alcohol to opening bank accounts.
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.
What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
Warrantless tracking of peoples' movement in their daily personal or business activities is, IMHO, a violation of the 4th Amendment right to be secure in our persons, houses, papers, and effects from government intrusion.
Real-ID may be fine for federal installations, but requiring it to board a privately owned aircraft is, IMHO, a way of tracking peoples' movements,and thus a violation of the 4th Amendment. In point of fact, I believe that any ID requirement mandated by the government to board a privately-owned aircraft is such a violation; Real-ID is simply a bigger and dangerouser violation.
I see the freedom issue as the continued escalation of government surveillance on the populace. States set the drivers permit standards to suit that state and the feds should have no say in the process. The matter of needing any form of ID to travel domestically troubles me on several fronts.
Mar 1, 2020, 7:38 am
#60
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I have yet to hear how real ID is any more like a national ID than the previous versions. The passport and SS card I showed at the dmv came from the Feds so they already had it along with knowing my residence. What information about me do they now have that they didn’t before real ID?
As for the constitutionality of requiring ID to travel, my guess is that it’s closer to the Feds regulating broadcasted speech over public airwaves. But I’m not a lawyer either.
As for the constitutionality of requiring ID to travel, my guess is that it’s closer to the Feds regulating broadcasted speech over public airwaves. But I’m not a lawyer either.