FlyerTalk Forums - View Single Post - Is there a Safety/Security Justification for REAL ID to Get on Commercial Flights?
Old Mar 1, 2020, 7:01 am
  #59  
WillCAD
 
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Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer, nor do I have any legal training, education, or experience, so the opinions I state in any of my posts are purely an average lay person's opinions.

Originally Posted by QtownDave
I'm honestly trying to be fair to your point of view but there just no way possible it's anywhere close to de facto anything just because the Feds set some standards for the States to follow. And those standards are nothing more than added verification that the information on the existing State ID is valid.

I'm in PA so we were one of the last to go along with it. I just did all a couple of months ago and all it included was bringing backup docs to confirm my info was correct. They also made it clear that Real ID was not needed to drive, vote, get Fed benefits, etc. and if one already had a passport than it wasn't even needed to fly.

National ID is just a bridge too far.
It's a national ID standard due to three facts:
A. The Real-ID Act mandates everything about issuance of a compliant ID card (including non-driver ID) - what information is collected, what information is retained, how long it's retained, what parts are stored directly on the card electronically, and what parts are printed on the card in human-readable form.
2. The Real-ID Act mandates that all of that information must be shared with all other states through linking of the states' databases.
D. Sharing of driver's information with the federal government is already mandated via an exception to the Driver's Privacy Protection Act of 1994, (18 U.S.C. § 2721).

The fact that the states are forking over the money, and doing the legwork, in no way negates the fact that they are acting at the behest of the federal government to collect, maintain, and disseminate a far wider dataset on every driver than has ever been collected before. In this case, the state MVAs are performing the same function for the de facto national ID standard that the private company IDEMIA/Identogo performs for PreCheck registration - information collection and identity verification. At the behest of the fed, which makes them federal government actors.

Also, sure, it's possible to board a plane without a Real-ID compliant ID, but not without further violation of your 4th Amendment right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure, through extensive searches of both your person and your effects. This is un-Constitutional on its face, IMHO, because it's applied unequally - have a Real-ID, no grope; don't have a Real-ID, get groped - and because lack of the special privileged class of documentation is not, IMHO, sufficient justification to use more invasive search methodologies than are used on those who DO have the special document. The search escalation is punitive, not triggered by any legitimate suspicion, and is thus an example of unequal treatment under the law.

This is exactly why the Real-ID requirement for boarding a plane is unjustified.

Originally Posted by cbn42
That ship sailed years ago. The driver's license has been a de facto ID card for a few decades now, used for everything from buying alcohol to opening bank accounts.

I don't see how it makes any difference whether the standards are set by the federal or state government.

What is the "freedom concern" with having a secure way for people to identify themselves?
The freedom concern is not just about being able to identify ones self, it's also about wholesale collection of sensitive PII by the federal government without warrant, probably cause, or reasonable suspicion, with only the vaguest protections on personal privacy. It's also about the ability to track peoples' movements - again without warrant, probable cause, or reasonable suspicion - within the country. And it's about an infringement on the freedom of movement, requiring identity papers for any domestic travel by plane or car (remember, it is legally required in most states, if not all, that a driver's license be on their person any time they operate a motor vehicle).

Warrantless tracking of peoples' movement in their daily personal or business activities is, IMHO, a violation of the 4th Amendment right to be secure in our persons, houses, papers, and effects from government intrusion.

Real-ID may be fine for federal
installations, but requiring it to board a privately owned aircraft is, IMHO, a way of tracking peoples' movements,and thus a violation of the 4th Amendment. In point of fact, I believe that any ID requirement mandated by the government to board a privately-owned aircraft is such a violation; Real-ID is simply a bigger and dangerouser violation.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
I see the freedom issue as the continued escalation of government surveillance on the populace. States set the drivers permit standards to suit that state and the feds should have no say in the process. The matter of needing any form of ID to travel domestically troubles me on several fronts.
Agreed. And not only should the fed have no say in the process, they should also have no access to any data collected by the states for licensing purposes, without a warrant.
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