Outrageous TSA employee acts like SS officer
Jul 17, 2017, 8:16 pm
#31
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: RDU
Posts: 5,250
Jul 17, 2017, 8:35 pm
#32
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
Somehow, I'm more concerned about offending the TSO than offending the Starbucks barista.
Occam's Razor would suggest the former. After all, that's what TSA's training academy is supposed to reinforce, right?
Jul 17, 2017, 8:42 pm
#33
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: RDU
Posts: 5,250
If I'm rude to a Starbucks barista, the worst thing that can happen to me is that I get kicked out and don't get to purchase my double double decaf espresso --- at least until I drive two miles down the road to the next coffee shop. If I'm rude to a TSO, the worst thing that can happen to me is ... missing my flight with my non-refundable tickets, being convicted of interfering with the screening process and being fined $11K in TSA's private court, and getting threatened with worse by the LEOs summoned by the TSOs for "disrespecting their authority".
Somehow, I'm more concerned about offending the TSO than offending the Starbucks barista.
Somehow, I'm more concerned about offending the TSO than offending the Starbucks barista.
Jul 18, 2017, 12:49 am
#34
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Posts: 604
So, let's summarize.
You show up at a checkpoint well after the recommended time for arrival for your flight, which you admit is your own fault. You ask TSA to violate their own procedures by screening your items ahead of someone else's items. When they do decide to check your items (note: it's unclear to me from your description abovewhether or not they granted that request for early screening), they take extra time to perform their screening. Nowhere do you claim that the manner in which they checked your items was inappropriate, only time-consuming and silent.
And this is TSA's problem, how, exactly?
If one believes in the myth of the terrorist trying to smuggle contraband through a TSA checkpoint, it's not hard to imagine the scenario of terrorist pretending to be the impatient business traveler, pushing to the front of the line and demanding expedited screening in order to "make his flight", thereby hoping to push the TSOs into inadequately screening the presented items. Or, perhaps, the TSO sees you as an indercover TSA inspector attempting a sting operation, by seeing if they can induce a TSO into performing an inadequate screening, which seems far more likely.
Yes, the TSOs did not speak to you. But, as I've said in many threads before, there really is no point in TSOs addressing passengers. If every passenger is a potential threat, then there's no reason for TSOs to trust anything that a passenger says. And anything that a TSO says becomes a matter of public record, subject to public scrutiny.
Because I suspect that the TSOs would have really liked to respond to you in anger (as with the SS-like remarks that started this thread). And then we'd be having yet another discussion about how TSOs talk inappropriately to passengers and ought to learn more respect, even when treated disrespectfully by passengers.
Up-thread, we're criticizing TSOs for how they talk to passengers. You're criticizing TSOs for how they don't talk to passengers. I suppose TSOs can't win, can they?
(Obligatory Disclaimer: Don't mistake me for a TSA apologist. I've criticized TSA plenty in these forums.)
You show up at a checkpoint well after the recommended time for arrival for your flight, which you admit is your own fault. You ask TSA to violate their own procedures by screening your items ahead of someone else's items. When they do decide to check your items (note: it's unclear to me from your description abovewhether or not they granted that request for early screening), they take extra time to perform their screening. Nowhere do you claim that the manner in which they checked your items was inappropriate, only time-consuming and silent.
And this is TSA's problem, how, exactly?
If one believes in the myth of the terrorist trying to smuggle contraband through a TSA checkpoint, it's not hard to imagine the scenario of terrorist pretending to be the impatient business traveler, pushing to the front of the line and demanding expedited screening in order to "make his flight", thereby hoping to push the TSOs into inadequately screening the presented items. Or, perhaps, the TSO sees you as an indercover TSA inspector attempting a sting operation, by seeing if they can induce a TSO into performing an inadequate screening, which seems far more likely.
Yes, the TSOs did not speak to you. But, as I've said in many threads before, there really is no point in TSOs addressing passengers. If every passenger is a potential threat, then there's no reason for TSOs to trust anything that a passenger says. And anything that a TSO says becomes a matter of public record, subject to public scrutiny.
Because I suspect that the TSOs would have really liked to respond to you in anger (as with the SS-like remarks that started this thread). And then we'd be having yet another discussion about how TSOs talk inappropriately to passengers and ought to learn more respect, even when treated disrespectfully by passengers.
Up-thread, we're criticizing TSOs for how they talk to passengers. You're criticizing TSOs for how they don't talk to passengers. I suppose TSOs can't win, can they?
(Obligatory Disclaimer: Don't mistake me for a TSA apologist. I've criticized TSA plenty in these forums.)
What does not fly with me is when I ask them a question, they just ignore me. Hell I could have settled for a rude explanation. Sadly you must be a TSA apologist if you think they are above answering a simple question. If screening my stuff first is against the rules, fine, say so. To act as if they are some power that cannot be bothered to answer us peons, well that's insane.
It's ludicrous that you think me asking a TSO to inspect my stuff first is some security risk for them to answer. I worked alongside TSO's for years at an airport, please spare me that nonsense. They have a job to do and I get that, but they are the to keep us safe (supposedly) not sit on their ivory tower and act like they are too important to answer a simple question. You sound like a TSO yourself if you think they are above answering a question.
Jul 18, 2017, 3:39 am
#35
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: LHR, HKG
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Posts: 315
I don't understand why TSOs are even being compared to Starbucks' baristas. Those baristas are employees of a private company. But our taxes pay for the (largely inefficient) TSA.
It's not outrageous to expect them to answer a simple question or two. And treat passengers politely.
It's not outrageous to expect them to answer a simple question or two. And treat passengers politely.
Jul 18, 2017, 5:22 am
#36
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Location: DFW
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I don't understand why TSOs are even being compared to Starbucks' baristas. Those baristas are employees of a private company. But our taxes pay for the (largely inefficient) TSA.
It's not outrageous to expect them to answer a simple question or two. And treat passengers politely.
It's not outrageous to expect them to answer a simple question or two. And treat passengers politely.
Jul 18, 2017, 9:57 am
#37
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta TDK(or care)WIA, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,869
What does not fly with me is when I ask them a question, they just ignore me. Hell I could have settled for a rude explanation. Sadly you must be a TSA apologist if you think they are above answering a simple question. If screening my stuff first is against the rules, fine, say so. To act as if they are some power that cannot be bothered to answer us peons, well that's insane.
The problem is that they are taught to project a "command presence" and that they are on some kind of "front line" against threats to aviation security, and that they are never fired for any offense against a passenger other than stealing an ipad from a TV network.
If the clerks would all just follow the rules properly so we didn't have to argue with them all the time, wouldn't things be very much closer to normal screening? Instead, they don't learn or follow the rules, and they retaliate against passengers who want them to follow the rules. Phil Mocek, Stacey Armato, Sai, and (in a very minor minor way) me. I had clerks argue with me back before they FINALLY learned what a NEXUS card is, and one clerk was going to let me pass but then got a supervisor when I asked him why did he not know the rules. So that was a minor, but deliberate act of retaliation.
The problem with them not responding to questions is that it keeps them from doing the jobs properly. I went to Paris from T1 at JFK, which is all international flights I think. I presented my driver's license, and the document checker kept asking me for my passport and I kept asking why and she kept saying I need to see your passport. Finally she called a supervisor, who called somebody on the radio, and then after speaking with this person, did the required scribbling and put me on through.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
Jul 18, 2017, 10:50 am
#38
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
And what you are discussing here is not the worst of it, I don't think. As I understand it, the clerk deliberately moved even slower than usual and was even more inefficient than usual in examining your belongings. Clerks do this all the time; they resent any questioning of what they are doing and they resent it when anybody points out that they are not following the rules.
The problem is that they are taught to project a "command presence" and that they are on some kind of "front line" against threats to aviation security, and that they are never fired for any offense against a passenger other than stealing an ipad from a TV network.
If the clerks would all just follow the rules properly so we didn't have to argue with them all the time, wouldn't things be very much closer to normal screening? Instead, they don't learn or follow the rules, and they retaliate against passengers who want them to follow the rules. Phil Mocek, Stacey Armato, Sai, and (in a very minor minor way) me. I had clerks argue with me back before they FINALLY learned what a NEXUS card is, and one clerk was going to let me pass but then got a supervisor when I asked him why did he not know the rules. So that was a minor, but deliberate act of retaliation.
The problem with them not responding to questions is that it keeps them from doing the jobs properly. I went to Paris from T1 at JFK, which is all international flights I think. I presented my driver's license, and the document checker kept asking me for my passport and I kept asking why and she kept saying I need to see your passport. Finally she called a supervisor, who called somebody on the radio, and then after speaking with this person, did the required scribbling and put me on through.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
The problem is that they are taught to project a "command presence" and that they are on some kind of "front line" against threats to aviation security, and that they are never fired for any offense against a passenger other than stealing an ipad from a TV network.
If the clerks would all just follow the rules properly so we didn't have to argue with them all the time, wouldn't things be very much closer to normal screening? Instead, they don't learn or follow the rules, and they retaliate against passengers who want them to follow the rules. Phil Mocek, Stacey Armato, Sai, and (in a very minor minor way) me. I had clerks argue with me back before they FINALLY learned what a NEXUS card is, and one clerk was going to let me pass but then got a supervisor when I asked him why did he not know the rules. So that was a minor, but deliberate act of retaliation.
The problem with them not responding to questions is that it keeps them from doing the jobs properly. I went to Paris from T1 at JFK, which is all international flights I think. I presented my driver's license, and the document checker kept asking me for my passport and I kept asking why and she kept saying I need to see your passport. Finally she called a supervisor, who called somebody on the radio, and then after speaking with this person, did the required scribbling and put me on through.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
You may experience inconsistency at airports as we incorporate unpredictable security measures.
Jul 18, 2017, 5:35 pm
#39
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Posts: 2,053
The problem with them not responding to questions is that it keeps them from doing the jobs properly. I went to Paris from T1 at JFK, which is all international flights I think. I presented my driver's license, and the document checker kept asking me for my passport and I kept asking why and she kept saying I need to see your passport. Finally she called a supervisor, who called somebody on the radio, and then after speaking with this person, did the required scribbling and put me on through.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
Jul 18, 2017, 6:25 pm
#40
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,154
And what you are discussing here is not the worst of it, I don't think. As I understand it, the clerk deliberately moved even slower than usual and was even more inefficient than usual in examining your belongings. Clerks do this all the time; they resent any questioning of what they are doing and they resent it when anybody points out that they are not following the rules.
The problem is that they are taught to project a "command presence" and that they are on some kind of "front line" against threats to aviation security, and that they are never fired for any offense against a passenger other than stealing an ipad from a TV network.
If the clerks would all just follow the rules properly so we didn't have to argue with them all the time, wouldn't things be very much closer to normal screening? Instead, they don't learn or follow the rules, and they retaliate against passengers who want them to follow the rules. Phil Mocek, Stacey Armato, Sai, and (in a very minor minor way) me. I had clerks argue with me back before they FINALLY learned what a NEXUS card is, and one clerk was going to let me pass but then got a supervisor when I asked him why did he not know the rules. So that was a minor, but deliberate act of retaliation.
The problem with them not responding to questions is that it keeps them from doing the jobs properly. I went to Paris from T1 at JFK, which is all international flights I think. I presented my driver's license, and the document checker kept asking me for my passport and I kept asking why and she kept saying I need to see your passport. Finally she called a supervisor, who called somebody on the radio, and then after speaking with this person, did the required scribbling and put me on through.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
The problem is that they are taught to project a "command presence" and that they are on some kind of "front line" against threats to aviation security, and that they are never fired for any offense against a passenger other than stealing an ipad from a TV network.
If the clerks would all just follow the rules properly so we didn't have to argue with them all the time, wouldn't things be very much closer to normal screening? Instead, they don't learn or follow the rules, and they retaliate against passengers who want them to follow the rules. Phil Mocek, Stacey Armato, Sai, and (in a very minor minor way) me. I had clerks argue with me back before they FINALLY learned what a NEXUS card is, and one clerk was going to let me pass but then got a supervisor when I asked him why did he not know the rules. So that was a minor, but deliberate act of retaliation.
The problem with them not responding to questions is that it keeps them from doing the jobs properly. I went to Paris from T1 at JFK, which is all international flights I think. I presented my driver's license, and the document checker kept asking me for my passport and I kept asking why and she kept saying I need to see your passport. Finally she called a supervisor, who called somebody on the radio, and then after speaking with this person, did the required scribbling and put me on through.
It is NOT the rule that you have to show your passport, and the clerks should ACTUALLY ANSWER a passenger who asks they why they are making a request that does not comply with the rules. At that point my passport only showed stamps for Malaysia, Singapore, Amsterdam, and Paris, and I didn't actually care, but lots of flyertalkers have said they don't want clerks looking through their passports in the belief that they're Junior Detectives. And some less knowledgeable travelers also don't want that, but don't know that the clerk doesn't have any right to ask for a specific ID.
Where are the TSA rules posted for travelers?
How do you protect ones self from government abuses with both hands tied behind your back?
If there was ever a time for a Passenger Bill of Rights it is now due to abusive practices by TSA and the airlines
Jul 18, 2017, 8:16 pm
#41
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta TDK(or care)WIA, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,869
What are the TSA rules?
Where are the TSA rules posted for travelers?
How do you protect ones self from government abuses with both hands tied behind your back?
If there was ever a time for a Passenger Bill of Rights it is now due to abusive practices by TSA and the airlines
Where are the TSA rules posted for travelers?
How do you protect ones self from government abuses with both hands tied behind your back?
If there was ever a time for a Passenger Bill of Rights it is now due to abusive practices by TSA and the airlines
And YOUR comments are part of the reason I oppose the "don't make waves" advocates so much. When I was at JFK T1 I had my NEXUS card in my computer case but I couldn't get to it without holding up the line a little bit so I used by driver's license and stood my ground when the clerk was more interested in "maintaining her command presence" by repeating the same wrong claim over and over than in learning the rules. It would have been easier to just give in but I felt that I had an obligation to passengers less experienced than I am to try to get that clerk to try to learn the rules. Now that I think about it, I should have complained.
Stacey Armato didn't put up with this behavior and used her specialized knowledge as a lawyer to make trouble for the TSA when they retaliated against her for wanting the clerks to do their jobs. She did wind up being forced to do community service, maybe as a result of this incident (ran for Hermosa Beach City Council and won). Maybe the TSA incident helped stoke a general desire to make government more responsive to citizens in general; maybe she was motivated by the same concerns about protecting the environment that lay behind her environmental activism.
You ask where are the TSA rules posted; that's the point, as your question suggests, they aren't posted; and NO, the clerks do not have discretion to do anything they like; that's not what "the final decision rests with TSA" means.
How do you protect yourself from government abuses with both hands tied behind your back; as your question suggests, lots of people can't or don't know how to push back or don't feel like it at any particular time, and those of us who ARE inclined to try to keep the clerks from getting away with abusing passengers should be encouraged to say and do what they think is best.
There's some Youtube of somebody who is filming and the clerk wants him to stop and I think he called a police officer (who didn't stop the filming) and he says "i don't care what he saw on the Internet; I want him gone!" and at some point the clerk pulls at his little plastic toy badge and says "You respect this badge right here!"
And OH, OH, OH, to the OP, the clerks have numbers on their little toy plastic badges and I used those numbers as identification in the complaint I sent in. It was about not knowing what the NEXUS card is and being super obnoxious about it. And after that, for one reason or another, I never had a NEXUS failure anymore.
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Jul 19, 2017, 10:13 am
#42
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
I think that perhaps Chollie has mentioned this in the past, but I note that @ASKTSA no longer provides a link for filing a complaint about screener behavior in response to a complaint. All they do is say something to the effect of "we'll share this with our team at XXX"; a whole lot of good that does.