Electronic devices ban Europe to the US [merged threads]
May 16, 2017, 4:05 pm
#736
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THIS POST IS PURE SPECULATION
I am reading between the lines of what is posted here and I predict the following:
1. The restrictions will be the "new normal" for an extended period of time, but they will change both quickly and long-term. (Think of the liquids ban.)
a. For example, most noise-cancelling headphones won't be banned long-term (or ever?), because they have such small batteries.
b. Medical devices will be banned and some traveler's will experience an inability to travel. Over time (pretty quick) there will be an option developed to go into a special line at the checkpoint, where there will be special testing devices and protocols which will allow more of such devices.
c. Eventually there will be testing devices which will make it all much easier.
2. One option which will be tried (not as part of the regulations, but by some airline) will be to place an onboard fire-fighter in the hold. Yes, I mean a live person. It is pressurized just like the rest of the plane. By having the ability to spot and physically manipulate the devices there will be many more options for fire control.
3. There will be an increased user fee for security checks as part of airline ticket pricing.
I am reading between the lines of what is posted here and I predict the following:
1. The restrictions will be the "new normal" for an extended period of time, but they will change both quickly and long-term. (Think of the liquids ban.)
a. For example, most noise-cancelling headphones won't be banned long-term (or ever?), because they have such small batteries.
b. Medical devices will be banned and some traveler's will experience an inability to travel. Over time (pretty quick) there will be an option developed to go into a special line at the checkpoint, where there will be special testing devices and protocols which will allow more of such devices.
c. Eventually there will be testing devices which will make it all much easier.
2. One option which will be tried (not as part of the regulations, but by some airline) will be to place an onboard fire-fighter in the hold. Yes, I mean a live person. It is pressurized just like the rest of the plane. By having the ability to spot and physically manipulate the devices there will be many more options for fire control.
3. There will be an increased user fee for security checks as part of airline ticket pricing.
May 16, 2017, 5:01 pm
#737
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,120
THIS POST IS PURE SPECULATION
I am reading between the lines of what is posted here and I predict the following:
1. The restrictions will be the "new normal" for an extended period of time, but they will change both quickly and long-term. (Think of the liquids ban.)
a. For example, most noise-cancelling headphones won't be banned long-term (or ever?), because they have such small batteries.
b. Medical devices will be banned and some traveler's will experience an inability to travel. Over time (pretty quick) there will be an option developed to go into a special line at the checkpoint, where there will be special testing devices and protocols which will allow more of such devices.
c. Eventually there will be testing devices which will make it all much easier.
2. One option which will be tried (not as part of the regulations, but by some airline) will be to place an onboard fire-fighter in the hold. Yes, I mean a live person. It is pressurized just like the rest of the plane. By having the ability to spot and physically manipulate the devices there will be many more options for fire control.
3. There will be an increased user fee for security checks as part of airline ticket pricing.
I am reading between the lines of what is posted here and I predict the following:
1. The restrictions will be the "new normal" for an extended period of time, but they will change both quickly and long-term. (Think of the liquids ban.)
a. For example, most noise-cancelling headphones won't be banned long-term (or ever?), because they have such small batteries.
b. Medical devices will be banned and some traveler's will experience an inability to travel. Over time (pretty quick) there will be an option developed to go into a special line at the checkpoint, where there will be special testing devices and protocols which will allow more of such devices.
c. Eventually there will be testing devices which will make it all much easier.
2. One option which will be tried (not as part of the regulations, but by some airline) will be to place an onboard fire-fighter in the hold. Yes, I mean a live person. It is pressurized just like the rest of the plane. By having the ability to spot and physically manipulate the devices there will be many more options for fire control.
3. There will be an increased user fee for security checks as part of airline ticket pricing.
May 16, 2017, 5:19 pm
#738
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,724
To jump back in to the conversation and to again answer some of the questions that were asked above as well as to provide some additional commentary.
Someone mentioned up thread about why Russia hasn’t been targeted since they have a large number of extremists in their country. My guess is that the western governments don’t see them as a big threat to the west because they are more likely to target Russian interests as opposed to Western interests. Not to say that could be used as a base to attack Western interests. But by the end of this exercise, they will be in the restrictions as well anyway.
One question that was asked was why are battery devices being targeted and the issues with detecting explosives in them. From my understanding what the bad guys have figured out what to do is replace some of the cells of the battery with the explosive material. They also figured out how to make the explosive material look like a normal cell in the battery. They have acquired or have access to, from what I understand, airport quality x-ray scanners and are using this to compare their modifications with an unmodified baseline. The authorities believe that they have gotten this to the point where it is extremely difficult to identify the modification via x-ray. Because the bad guys have to only replace a part of the battery cells, the device can still fully operate as intended, thus defeating the power on and show it works prior test. The explosives can still be detected by trace explosive techniques and via the higher powered CT type devices. This is why the particular devices have been targeted.
We are starting to hear and read comments from other countries about the potential for a ban on these devices. This confirms what I have been hearing that we are on the verge of a worldwide set of restrictions on these type of devices on board aircraft. I think we will hear something later this week via a joint EU/US announcement of the restrictions. ICAO will likely publish a similar recommendation around the same time, after which it will be adopted by most if not all countries, either by regulation or default. Since the restrictions will be worldwide, trying some circuitous routing won’t really matter.
It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on “micro” electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad mini’s and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.
Someone mentioned up thread about why Russia hasn’t been targeted since they have a large number of extremists in their country. My guess is that the western governments don’t see them as a big threat to the west because they are more likely to target Russian interests as opposed to Western interests. Not to say that could be used as a base to attack Western interests. But by the end of this exercise, they will be in the restrictions as well anyway.
One question that was asked was why are battery devices being targeted and the issues with detecting explosives in them. From my understanding what the bad guys have figured out what to do is replace some of the cells of the battery with the explosive material. They also figured out how to make the explosive material look like a normal cell in the battery. They have acquired or have access to, from what I understand, airport quality x-ray scanners and are using this to compare their modifications with an unmodified baseline. The authorities believe that they have gotten this to the point where it is extremely difficult to identify the modification via x-ray. Because the bad guys have to only replace a part of the battery cells, the device can still fully operate as intended, thus defeating the power on and show it works prior test. The explosives can still be detected by trace explosive techniques and via the higher powered CT type devices. This is why the particular devices have been targeted.
We are starting to hear and read comments from other countries about the potential for a ban on these devices. This confirms what I have been hearing that we are on the verge of a worldwide set of restrictions on these type of devices on board aircraft. I think we will hear something later this week via a joint EU/US announcement of the restrictions. ICAO will likely publish a similar recommendation around the same time, after which it will be adopted by most if not all countries, either by regulation or default. Since the restrictions will be worldwide, trying some circuitous routing won’t really matter.
It does look like the rules will be fairly draconian. It will severely limit the number of devices that a person can bring with them. The burden on security checkpoints is going to be very high. The rules are likely going to require swabbing of all electronic devices. It seems there will be no limit on “micro” electronic devices, e.g. hearing aids, watches, and devices of that size. There will be a limit on large electronic devices, e.g. laptops, cameras, and the like. This number will likely be limited to one per passenger. The two open questions that I have heard are how are they going to classify devices such as ipad mini’s and small e-readers. The big ones of these fall into the laptop category. There is debate on these hybrid sized devices. The likely place is that they will fall with the laptops, but it is possible they will fall with the phone restrictions. It looks like the phone restriction will be no more than two phone sized devices.
Last edited by iluvdoco; May 16, 2017 at 5:37 pm
May 16, 2017, 5:45 pm
#739
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
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Posts: 5,678
I think she's reviewing the policy and making sure it's still the best fit - this ban just got her thinking about it, and not a bad idea to review insurance periodically anyway.
But there are a lot of similar options both in conjunction with membership in an organization and stand alone. Kind of depends on what you do with your camera and what your needs are, amateur, semi-pro, pro. Probably best to read some articles comparing some of the popular policies first - googling "camera insurance reviews" will give you some good resources to read up before deciding.
We stayed away from a home insurance rider as it wasn't as well suited to what she wanted and moreover, we didn't want to make a claim on our homeowner's policy which can often raise premiums or worse.
May 16, 2017, 5:57 pm
#740
Join Date: Dec 2014
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My wife has this (part of membership) https://www.ppa.com/insurance
I'm just waiting to see what happens with all this non-sense and wherever or not we will be permitted to check a camera at all. I have a vacation to Europe on the 25th. I would just like to know what is coming so I can plan accordingly.
May 16, 2017, 6:44 pm
#742
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ATL
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I'm considering PPA right now. They have an additional package that covers mysterious disappearance. I'm waiting on some clarification from the agent if this would cover checked baggage. They offer replacement value on scheduled equipment and market value for everything else based on a deprecation schedule.
I'm just waiting to see what happens with all this non-sense and wherever or not we will be permitted to check a camera at all. I have a vacation to Europe on the 25th. I would just like to know what is coming so I can plan accordingly.
I'm just waiting to see what happens with all this non-sense and wherever or not we will be permitted to check a camera at all. I have a vacation to Europe on the 25th. I would just like to know what is coming so I can plan accordingly.
And if this battery issue is the real issue it seems pretty simple. State that the ban exists and many with basic stuff will just check their laptop. Great. Others that are professionals or need their items simply need to know that it WILL get swabbed and secondary screened. My think tank camera bag is screened/swapped ~75% of the time in ATL now on outbound. It used to be close to 0%. Since the automated bin system was installed it's jumped up t 75%. There is a LOT of expensive camera equipment in it.
This would get out that you would be secondary screened and likely snuff out much of this potential issue.
And my follow up comment. How is in the cabin a problem but just 5-10ft below not a problem? Laptop has to be powered up and then initialized or something? I just feel like it would be a timer setup or similar and whether in the hold or an overhead bin?
I'm no expert there so what do I know?
May 16, 2017, 7:11 pm
#743
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Right. I was thinking earlier what options to acquire replacement gear would exist in Ushuaia (wife wants me to research a trip to Antarctica).
May 16, 2017, 9:24 pm
#744
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Of course, most flights there come from somewhere else in country, like Buenos Aires. And there are plenty of places there.
This is assuming Argentina doesn't implement this. On a related note most (well our) internal flights had this crazy 15kg limit on checked baggage ... I paid maybe US$40 for about 25kg and nothing on the 28kg return. Also had zero issues taking a fully loaded pack with two bodies, 5 lenses, a SX50 backup and a huge assortment of accessories on. And I was in Y.
May 16, 2017, 10:05 pm
#745
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Someone mentioned up thread about why Russia hasn’t been targeted since they have a large number of extremists in their country. My guess is that the western governments don’t see them as a big threat to the west because they are more likely to target Russian interests as opposed to Western interests. Not to say that could be used as a base to attack Western interests. But by the end of this exercise, they will be in the restrictions as well anyway.
While it's true that extremists tend to attack in and around their own backyard more than anywhere else, FSU-background extremists are some of the most global attackers out there -- which sort of mirrors the map of where the Russian government plays hardball, including where it has been using/applying rather hostile ops if not (also) obvious explicit physical force.
The US Admin excluding Russia from the current ban is one thing. Russian ending up also included under some kind of future multilateral ban is a separate thing. For the former, it's all on the US; for the latter, it's on the multilateral parties. The current exclusion of Russia from the US ban tells a story of its own about governmental "thinking". Potential future inclusion of Russia under a different ban isn't the same thing as the current ban. And the responsibility for inclusions/exclusions under each ban speaks to and about the decision-making party/parties involved at the time.
Last edited by GUWonder; May 16, 2017 at 10:24 pm
May 16, 2017, 10:18 pm
#746
Join Date: Mar 2014
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I doubt anyone in Antartica has a Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS in stock or even a Canon 1DX. Which becomes my issue. Sure I can get 'something' but will it be what I need?
May 17, 2017, 2:24 am
#747
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Someone in the UK has apparently been talking to the newspapers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-eu-officials/
> Senior officials in Whitehall told The Telegraph on Tuesday that the UK security establishment did not believe a laptop ban was justified and were working, alongside European officials, to convince Washington it was unnecessary.
> "We just don't think a laptop ban is justified," the source said, "not for flights from Europe or from the UK."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-eu-officials/
> Senior officials in Whitehall told The Telegraph on Tuesday that the UK security establishment did not believe a laptop ban was justified and were working, alongside European officials, to convince Washington it was unnecessary.
> "We just don't think a laptop ban is justified," the source said, "not for flights from Europe or from the UK."
May 17, 2017, 2:52 am
#748
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Someone in the UK has apparently been talking to the newspapers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-eu-officials/
> Senior officials in Whitehall told The Telegraph on Tuesday that the UK security establishment did not believe a laptop ban was justified and were working, alongside European officials, to convince Washington it was unnecessary.
> "We just don't think a laptop ban is justified," the source said, "not for flights from Europe or from the UK."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-eu-officials/
> Senior officials in Whitehall told The Telegraph on Tuesday that the UK security establishment did not believe a laptop ban was justified and were working, alongside European officials, to convince Washington it was unnecessary.
> "We just don't think a laptop ban is justified," the source said, "not for flights from Europe or from the UK."
May 17, 2017, 3:01 am
#749
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PIT
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Someone in the UK has apparently been talking to the newspapers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-eu-officials/
> Senior officials in Whitehall told The Telegraph on Tuesday that the UK security establishment did not believe a laptop ban was justified and were working, alongside European officials, to convince Washington it was unnecessary.
> "We just don't think a laptop ban is justified," the source said, "not for flights from Europe or from the UK."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-eu-officials/
> Senior officials in Whitehall told The Telegraph on Tuesday that the UK security establishment did not believe a laptop ban was justified and were working, alongside European officials, to convince Washington it was unnecessary.
> "We just don't think a laptop ban is justified," the source said, "not for flights from Europe or from the UK."
May 17, 2017, 3:20 am
#750
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