WSCH-TV6: Woman claims she was humiliated by TSA at Portland (PWM), Maine
Apr 20, 2013, 9:21 pm
#16
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,967
gsoltso, do you still advocate passengers filing complaints when attempting to file a complaint is almost as challenging as passing through the checkpoint, or virtually impossible at some checkpoints? BOS was mentioned, and I had similar experiences ie 'no comment cards exist' at LAS and MCO.
It seems that your employer is often obstructive when it comes to customer feedback, yet the response we hear from you and from the agency is that if we don't file complaints, they have no way of knowing that we are unhappy.
(I don't mean to be singling you out, but you have bumped a thread from many months ago which I assume you found by searching for your name, perhaps? I've respected your viewpoints in past, but I do think that telling us to file complaints is somewhat unrealistic as a step towards improving our experiences)
It seems that your employer is often obstructive when it comes to customer feedback, yet the response we hear from you and from the agency is that if we don't file complaints, they have no way of knowing that we are unhappy.
(I don't mean to be singling you out, but you have bumped a thread from many months ago which I assume you found by searching for your name, perhaps? I've respected your viewpoints in past, but I do think that telling us to file complaints is somewhat unrealistic as a step towards improving our experiences)
Apr 21, 2013, 5:57 am
#17
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
gsoltso, I appreciate your attitude and wish it was shared by more of your fellow TSOs.
However...it is indeed remarkable that I can think of only one instance when TSA openly admitted wrong-doing - when Pistole apologized because Tom Sawyer's ostomy bag was mishandled by a TSO, in spite of Sawyer's warnings and pleas.
Sadly, I don't recall a second apology from Pistole or anyone else at TSA when Sawyer experienced a similar (fortunately less disastrous) handling of his ostomy bag again at the same airport.
Even statistically, it is unlikely that TSA is always right and the pax is always wrong, but Blogger Bob and various TSA spokespeople would have us believe that is the case. Even in the rare instance when TSA can't avoid admitting something didn't go well, the language is carefully chosen to suggest that the pax was somehow largely at fault for the incident and/or there was a minor hiccup in the agent's training.
If TSA wants to change the image it has of an agency that lies to cover up for its employees at all costs, it needs to stop the sickening word-smithing, openly admit when something goes wrong (the employees, not the pax, are the trained, experienced professionals) and release all footage all the time.
Note: in this particular instance, TSA claims video review didn't reveal any female pax rolling up their sleeves. ??? The question was whether or not ONE particular pax, this woman, was asked to roll up her sleeves. The wording leads me to conclude that TSA never viewed the footage; if they had, they would have known the specific agent involved and would have been able to release the footage to back up their assertions.
However...it is indeed remarkable that I can think of only one instance when TSA openly admitted wrong-doing - when Pistole apologized because Tom Sawyer's ostomy bag was mishandled by a TSO, in spite of Sawyer's warnings and pleas.
Sadly, I don't recall a second apology from Pistole or anyone else at TSA when Sawyer experienced a similar (fortunately less disastrous) handling of his ostomy bag again at the same airport.
Even statistically, it is unlikely that TSA is always right and the pax is always wrong, but Blogger Bob and various TSA spokespeople would have us believe that is the case. Even in the rare instance when TSA can't avoid admitting something didn't go well, the language is carefully chosen to suggest that the pax was somehow largely at fault for the incident and/or there was a minor hiccup in the agent's training.
If TSA wants to change the image it has of an agency that lies to cover up for its employees at all costs, it needs to stop the sickening word-smithing, openly admit when something goes wrong (the employees, not the pax, are the trained, experienced professionals) and release all footage all the time.
Note: in this particular instance, TSA claims video review didn't reveal any female pax rolling up their sleeves. ??? The question was whether or not ONE particular pax, this woman, was asked to roll up her sleeves. The wording leads me to conclude that TSA never viewed the footage; if they had, they would have known the specific agent involved and would have been able to release the footage to back up their assertions.
I agree we should be more open in how we address things to the public. I am an unabashed advocate of taking it on the chin when something is done in the wrong. The best way to do something is to do it right the first time, if we fail in that endeavor, then we should listen to what is being said, examine/investigate those claims and correct what is wrong. We should do all of this publicly, so that the people that we see everyday can understand we are working to fix anything that is broken. I have been preaching this for ages, it worked pretty well for me in the Army, and it has worked pretty well for me throughout my whole life. We all make mistakes, owning up to it and moving forward has traditionally been the best approach for me. Keep in mind that I am a front line Joe, as such, I have a minimal impact on how the organization runs. I do everything in my power to make things as correct and painless as I possibly can here, and through my network of contacts.
gsoltso, you do seem to base a lot of your responses on your behaviour and your airport checkpoint. Certainly you now by now from reading here and your own travel experiences that those are not the norm.
Filing a complaint is certainly not always as simple as you make it appear. Try waiting for almost 30 minutes at an airport like LAS. See what type of response one often receives when asking for a comment card. Then there is fear of being placed on a list somewhere for being a 'troublemaker'.
I've spoken to many people in higher positions, including managers at non-TSA locations such as MCI. But I do somewhat resent the fact that you like your employer place the onus on us to file a complaint, when the actual act of filing a complaint can sometimes be almost as awful as the actual incident.
Filing a complaint is certainly not always as simple as you make it appear. Try waiting for almost 30 minutes at an airport like LAS. See what type of response one often receives when asking for a comment card. Then there is fear of being placed on a list somewhere for being a 'troublemaker'.
I've spoken to many people in higher positions, including managers at non-TSA locations such as MCI. But I do somewhat resent the fact that you like your employer place the onus on us to file a complaint, when the actual act of filing a complaint can sometimes be almost as awful as the actual incident.
The onus is originally on us to do what we are supposed to at all times. If we fail in that, many of the leadership positions are not able to determine what happened without some input from the passengers. I realize that this will shift the onus to initiate action on the passengers, but if those leadership members do not know when something is going wrong, they can't fix it. I understand that this is an additional challenge for the passengers that have already had a bad experience, but I can think of no other way to let the senior leadership know that there are problems. Some will say that active leadership and management will alleviate many of these challenges, and it could, but we will always need that feedback from passengers to help "force" the issue sometimes. I also realize that we have not responded (according to reports and things others here and at other sites have told me) as well as we could have to customer complaints, I believe we should do a better job in this department. As I said above, you should be contacted to let you know that the agency is taking your commentary seriously enough to at least look into the situation, review video, ask around and see what is going on, and take proper steps to address the situation if it appears to be a valid complaint. Please do not take offense at me asking you to help us be a better organization, I learned a long time ago, that asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it is a way to bring more eyes on a challenge and create a solution. We should be much more cooperative than adversarial with passengers, and sadly it does not sound as if that is always the case.
Now, to the challenges with filing a complaint, I am in agreement with you that it should be painless and you are entitled to a response from the organization - this does not mean that the result you are specifically looking for will be attained. It does however, mean that we should contact you and address the complaint according to the regulations. The people on scene in the checkpoint should be as willing to give you commentary cards (or if they are not physically available, they should work with you to make sure you have some way to contact and file the complaint) as they are to breathe. Active commentary and feedback from passengers can lead to better processes, better communication and a better experiences for many people (both the passengers and employees). You should never catch flak for trying to provide feedback (positive or negative) on your checkpoint experiences.
I filed a complaint with FLL TSA over an suspected attempted theft by a screener and Tim Lewis, FLL's FSD, covered up for the screener. I filed a complaint at DFW against LTSO Gerard and DFW TSA would not do anything unless I communicated by telephone even after explaining I have a hearing problem. Complaints to or about TSA and its employees are pointless when at TSA the standard response is that "proper procedures were followed".
TSA is only interested in what is good for TSA, not what is good for the public.
TSA is only interested in what is good for TSA, not what is good for the public.
As for the result of their looking into it, I can make no judgement against the FSD. I have heard your side of it, and the local FSD says (according to your reports) that they followed the SOP. Without something to hang out there in contradiction (such as video showing intent*, corroborating statements, a coworker coming forward - proof of some sort), it is hard to say they did not do their due diligence. If I were an FSD, and this complaint crossed my desk, my first stop would be the video room. If I did not have conclusive proof that I could take to court and use, then I would conduct interviews with the people on the floor. If that failed to give me something I could use in court, then I have reached a situation where the best that I could offer you is "based upon my investigation, the SOP was followed, and I have discovered nothing that supports your claim of attempted theft". I could then be proactive and have a discussion with everyone that works for me explaining that theft is not tolerated and would be dealt with swiftly and with all force of the law behind it. Beyond that, there is pretty much nothing that FSD can do for you. It sounds like the FSD communicated with you, but it also sounds like he was unwilling to accuse someone without proof. Of course, that is simply my interpretation (and opinion) from a removed POV, so it could be completely wrong.
* Proving intent without a confession is nigh on impossible in a situation like you have described, if the individual *did* have intent and is not willing to confess to that intent, proving it would be next to impossible.
Apr 21, 2013, 6:06 am
#18
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
gsoltso, do you still advocate passengers filing complaints when attempting to file a complaint is almost as challenging as passing through the checkpoint, or virtually impossible at some checkpoints? BOS was mentioned, and I had similar experiences ie 'no comment cards exist' at LAS and MCO.
It seems that your employer is often obstructive when it comes to customer feedback, yet the response we hear from you and from the agency is that if we don't file complaints, they have no way of knowing that we are unhappy.
(I don't mean to be singling you out, but you have bumped a thread from many months ago which I assume you found by searching for your name, perhaps? I've respected your viewpoints in past, but I do think that telling us to file complaints is somewhat unrealistic as a step towards improving our experiences)
It seems that your employer is often obstructive when it comes to customer feedback, yet the response we hear from you and from the agency is that if we don't file complaints, they have no way of knowing that we are unhappy.
(I don't mean to be singling you out, but you have bumped a thread from many months ago which I assume you found by searching for your name, perhaps? I've respected your viewpoints in past, but I do think that telling us to file complaints is somewhat unrealistic as a step towards improving our experiences)
I do still advocate filing the complaints, and will continue to do so - mainly because it is your right to do so, but also because it can provide feedback on things that need to be addressed. As I mentioned above, I understand the challenges that seem to go with it in some locations, but according to the regs, that is not what is supposed to happen (I know! I know! some folks just make it a pain in the rear from what I have heard). If more people file feedback, both negative and positive, then it will help to fix some of what is being done wrong. I preach to everyone that will listen that customer feedback is essential to improving things for both them, and us (admittedly, it does not always achieve what I am after, but I still preach it). I also do what I can to make certain that there is no challenge to filing this feedback in my sphere of influence. Again, I understand that I am just a tiny cog in a gigantic machine, but I try my best to help where I can. Personally, I would file the complaints just to make the point to the local leadership. It may not amount to anything, but I would force the issue because it is in my personality, and it is what is right.
Apr 21, 2013, 8:06 am
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,110
Comment cards are a waste. Find out who the FSD is and email or use the Talk to TSA tool to start a contact trail. I don't show the checkpoint clerks my intentions beyond collecting names and times. If need be go straight to DHS OIG.
Apr 21, 2013, 8:26 am
#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,110
Thank you for the kind words, I always try my best to be level and comment as intelligently as I can (which is a challenge somedays...).
I agree we should be more open in how we address things to the public. I am an unabashed advocate of taking it on the chin when something is done in the wrong. The best way to do something is to do it right the first time, if we fail in that endeavor, then we should listen to what is being said, examine/investigate those claims and correct what is wrong. We should do all of this publicly, so that the people that we see everyday can understand we are working to fix anything that is broken. I have been preaching this for ages, it worked pretty well for me in the Army, and it has worked pretty well for me throughout my whole life. We all make mistakes, owning up to it and moving forward has traditionally been the best approach for me. Keep in mind that I am a front line Joe, as such, I have a minimal impact on how the organization runs. I do everything in my power to make things as correct and painless as I possibly can here, and through my network of contacts.
I base my commentary on what I have direct experience with - which is GSO and a short period of time at LAX and even shorter periods of time at PHX, CLT and RDU. I have not experienced firsthand anything on the level of what I read about in the media consistently, due to that fact, I have to rely on whatever I can read in the public sector. I do not deny that bad things happen - that would be putting my head in the sand. I merely like to have proof before I accuse someone of something - in a perfect world, that would be the case with every account of bad things I read, but we do not live in a perfect world. I tend to take everything I read pro or anti TSA with a grain of salt if it does not have proof.
The onus is originally on us to do what we are supposed to at all times. If we fail in that, many of the leadership positions are not able to determine what happened without some input from the passengers. I realize that this will shift the onus to initiate action on the passengers, but if those leadership members do not know when something is going wrong, they can't fix it. I understand that this is an additional challenge for the passengers that have already had a bad experience, but I can think of no other way to let the senior leadership know that there are problems. Some will say that active leadership and management will alleviate many of these challenges, and it could, but we will always need that feedback from passengers to help "force" the issue sometimes. I also realize that we have not responded (according to reports and things others here and at other sites have told me) as well as we could have to customer complaints, I believe we should do a better job in this department. As I said above, you should be contacted to let you know that the agency is taking your commentary seriously enough to at least look into the situation, review video, ask around and see what is going on, and take proper steps to address the situation if it appears to be a valid complaint. Please do not take offense at me asking you to help us be a better organization, I learned a long time ago, that asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it is a way to bring more eyes on a challenge and create a solution. We should be much more cooperative than adversarial with passengers, and sadly it does not sound as if that is always the case.
Now, to the challenges with filing a complaint, I am in agreement with you that it should be painless and you are entitled to a response from the organization - this does not mean that the result you are specifically looking for will be attained. It does however, mean that we should contact you and address the complaint according to the regulations. The people on scene in the checkpoint should be as willing to give you commentary cards (or if they are not physically available, they should work with you to make sure you have some way to contact and file the complaint) as they are to breathe. Active commentary and feedback from passengers can lead to better processes, better communication and a better experiences for many people (both the passengers and employees). You should never catch flak for trying to provide feedback (positive or negative) on your checkpoint experiences.
I have heard of things like this from other people as well, and it is part of the reason I advocate for the more open communication and responses through the complaint process. You will not always get the result you are looking for, but we should at least follow through and contact you back to let you know that we looked into it. You at least heard back from local management, which is a much better deal than some of the stories I have had forwarded to me. That doesn't make any difference to you, I understand that. There should have been some way that they communicated with you to accomodate the hearing challenges, email is effective, easy and gives everyone involved a readily available record to refer to.
As for the result of their looking into it, I can make no judgement against the FSD. I have heard your side of it, and the local FSD says (according to your reports) that they followed the SOP. Without something to hang out there in contradiction (such as video showing intent*, corroborating statements, a coworker coming forward - proof of some sort), it is hard to say they did not do their due diligence. If I were an FSD, and this complaint crossed my desk, my first stop would be the video room. If I did not have conclusive proof that I could take to court and use, then I would conduct interviews with the people on the floor. If that failed to give me something I could use in court, then I have reached a situation where the best that I could offer you is "based upon my investigation, the SOP was followed, and I have discovered nothing that supports your claim of attempted theft". I could then be proactive and have a discussion with everyone that works for me explaining that theft is not tolerated and would be dealt with swiftly and with all force of the law behind it. Beyond that, there is pretty much nothing that FSD can do for you. It sounds like the FSD communicated with you, but it also sounds like he was unwilling to accuse someone without proof. Of course, that is simply my interpretation (and opinion) from a removed POV, so it could be completely wrong.
* Proving intent without a confession is nigh on impossible in a situation like you have described, if the individual *did* have intent and is not willing to confess to that intent, proving it would be next to impossible.
I agree we should be more open in how we address things to the public. I am an unabashed advocate of taking it on the chin when something is done in the wrong. The best way to do something is to do it right the first time, if we fail in that endeavor, then we should listen to what is being said, examine/investigate those claims and correct what is wrong. We should do all of this publicly, so that the people that we see everyday can understand we are working to fix anything that is broken. I have been preaching this for ages, it worked pretty well for me in the Army, and it has worked pretty well for me throughout my whole life. We all make mistakes, owning up to it and moving forward has traditionally been the best approach for me. Keep in mind that I am a front line Joe, as such, I have a minimal impact on how the organization runs. I do everything in my power to make things as correct and painless as I possibly can here, and through my network of contacts.
I base my commentary on what I have direct experience with - which is GSO and a short period of time at LAX and even shorter periods of time at PHX, CLT and RDU. I have not experienced firsthand anything on the level of what I read about in the media consistently, due to that fact, I have to rely on whatever I can read in the public sector. I do not deny that bad things happen - that would be putting my head in the sand. I merely like to have proof before I accuse someone of something - in a perfect world, that would be the case with every account of bad things I read, but we do not live in a perfect world. I tend to take everything I read pro or anti TSA with a grain of salt if it does not have proof.
The onus is originally on us to do what we are supposed to at all times. If we fail in that, many of the leadership positions are not able to determine what happened without some input from the passengers. I realize that this will shift the onus to initiate action on the passengers, but if those leadership members do not know when something is going wrong, they can't fix it. I understand that this is an additional challenge for the passengers that have already had a bad experience, but I can think of no other way to let the senior leadership know that there are problems. Some will say that active leadership and management will alleviate many of these challenges, and it could, but we will always need that feedback from passengers to help "force" the issue sometimes. I also realize that we have not responded (according to reports and things others here and at other sites have told me) as well as we could have to customer complaints, I believe we should do a better job in this department. As I said above, you should be contacted to let you know that the agency is taking your commentary seriously enough to at least look into the situation, review video, ask around and see what is going on, and take proper steps to address the situation if it appears to be a valid complaint. Please do not take offense at me asking you to help us be a better organization, I learned a long time ago, that asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it is a way to bring more eyes on a challenge and create a solution. We should be much more cooperative than adversarial with passengers, and sadly it does not sound as if that is always the case.
Now, to the challenges with filing a complaint, I am in agreement with you that it should be painless and you are entitled to a response from the organization - this does not mean that the result you are specifically looking for will be attained. It does however, mean that we should contact you and address the complaint according to the regulations. The people on scene in the checkpoint should be as willing to give you commentary cards (or if they are not physically available, they should work with you to make sure you have some way to contact and file the complaint) as they are to breathe. Active commentary and feedback from passengers can lead to better processes, better communication and a better experiences for many people (both the passengers and employees). You should never catch flak for trying to provide feedback (positive or negative) on your checkpoint experiences.
I have heard of things like this from other people as well, and it is part of the reason I advocate for the more open communication and responses through the complaint process. You will not always get the result you are looking for, but we should at least follow through and contact you back to let you know that we looked into it. You at least heard back from local management, which is a much better deal than some of the stories I have had forwarded to me. That doesn't make any difference to you, I understand that. There should have been some way that they communicated with you to accomodate the hearing challenges, email is effective, easy and gives everyone involved a readily available record to refer to.
As for the result of their looking into it, I can make no judgement against the FSD. I have heard your side of it, and the local FSD says (according to your reports) that they followed the SOP. Without something to hang out there in contradiction (such as video showing intent*, corroborating statements, a coworker coming forward - proof of some sort), it is hard to say they did not do their due diligence. If I were an FSD, and this complaint crossed my desk, my first stop would be the video room. If I did not have conclusive proof that I could take to court and use, then I would conduct interviews with the people on the floor. If that failed to give me something I could use in court, then I have reached a situation where the best that I could offer you is "based upon my investigation, the SOP was followed, and I have discovered nothing that supports your claim of attempted theft". I could then be proactive and have a discussion with everyone that works for me explaining that theft is not tolerated and would be dealt with swiftly and with all force of the law behind it. Beyond that, there is pretty much nothing that FSD can do for you. It sounds like the FSD communicated with you, but it also sounds like he was unwilling to accuse someone without proof. Of course, that is simply my interpretation (and opinion) from a removed POV, so it could be completely wrong.
* Proving intent without a confession is nigh on impossible in a situation like you have described, if the individual *did* have intent and is not willing to confess to that intent, proving it would be next to impossible.
My personal complaints against TSA went unresolved because TSA did not investigate.
I was a TSA supporter until then but no longer. When TSA takes action to control its workforce perhaps I will again become a supporter but not one second sooner.
Apr 21, 2013, 8:36 am
#21
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,967
gsoltso, how much do you expect the average traveller to push for a comment card, if they are told that none exists? I mean the average traveller, not the 100,000 mile a year traveller, the TS&S poster, or the TSO travelling on holiday.
HOW do they file a comment card when they are told that such things don't exist? Most people are not going to wait around 15 or 30 minutes or more, or push when they have already been through a bad experience.
I suspect that many people end up going to the media, or posting on a blog, or even here, because they are told that no comment card exists.
Your answers on this thread, if I may paraphrase, seem to be 'it shouldn't happen' and 'file a comment card'. That at least is what I am taking from your posts. And again, obtaining a comment card isn't always as easy as you so cavalierly suggest, even for those of us who are very experienced travellers.
HOW do they file a comment card when they are told that such things don't exist? Most people are not going to wait around 15 or 30 minutes or more, or push when they have already been through a bad experience.
I suspect that many people end up going to the media, or posting on a blog, or even here, because they are told that no comment card exists.
Your answers on this thread, if I may paraphrase, seem to be 'it shouldn't happen' and 'file a comment card'. That at least is what I am taking from your posts. And again, obtaining a comment card isn't always as easy as you so cavalierly suggest, even for those of us who are very experienced travellers.
Apr 21, 2013, 8:57 am
#22
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,681
gsoltso, how much do you expect the average traveller to push for a comment card, if they are told that none exists? I mean the average traveller, not the 100,000 mile a year traveller, the TS&S poster, or the TSO travelling on holiday.
HOW do they file a comment card when they are told that such things don't exist? Most people are not going to wait around 15 or 30 minutes or more, or push when they have already been through a bad experience.
I suspect that many people end up going to the media, or posting on a blog, or even here, because they are told that no comment card exists.
Your answers on this thread, if I may paraphrase, seem to be 'it shouldn't happen' and 'file a comment card'. That at least is what I am taking from your posts. And again, obtaining a comment card isn't always as easy as you so cavalierly suggest, even for those of us who are very experienced travellers.
HOW do they file a comment card when they are told that such things don't exist? Most people are not going to wait around 15 or 30 minutes or more, or push when they have already been through a bad experience.
I suspect that many people end up going to the media, or posting on a blog, or even here, because they are told that no comment card exists.
Your answers on this thread, if I may paraphrase, seem to be 'it shouldn't happen' and 'file a comment card'. That at least is what I am taking from your posts. And again, obtaining a comment card isn't always as easy as you so cavalierly suggest, even for those of us who are very experienced travellers.
You also didn't mention the intimidation factor, something that is frankly off-putting even to frequent travellers.
The first time I tried to follow up on a checkpoint problem, it was because a clowning around TSO knocked the bin containing my work laptop off the table and 10 feet away on the floor. I asked to see a supervisor for a comment card and to report the damage to the laptop. The TSO immediately demanded my BP and ID to be copied for their 'records'.
gsoltso, you might suggest that TSA needs my 'contact' information for follow-up. Really? I can supply my contact information without TSA needing a photocopy of my ID (secured how?), and why are copies of all BPs for that day's travel necessary or relevant?
On the few occasions I asked for a comment card (including one occasion when I specifically explained that I wanted the card to compliment a specific employee), the request could only be satisfied by at least a 3-striper, long waits were involved, and copies of my ID and BP(s) were necessary.
Sorry, I have no confidence in a system that makes the very act of just asking for a comment card intimidating and time-consuming, and I no longer trust TSA to not maintain my information, possibly to be used against me in the future in some way.
Apr 21, 2013, 8:58 am
#23
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
gsoltso, how much do you expect the average traveller to push for a comment card, if they are told that none exists? I mean the average traveller, not the 100,000 mile a year traveller, the TS&S poster, or the TSO travelling on holiday.
HOW do they file a comment card when they are told that such things don't exist? Most people are not going to wait around 15 or 30 minutes or more, or push when they have already been through a bad experience.
I suspect that many people end up going to the media, or posting on a blog, or even here, because they are told that no comment card exists.
Your answers on this thread, if I may paraphrase, seem to be 'it shouldn't happen' and 'file a comment card'. That at least is what I am taking from your posts. And again, obtaining a comment card isn't always as easy as you so cavalierly suggest, even for those of us who are very experienced travellers.
HOW do they file a comment card when they are told that such things don't exist? Most people are not going to wait around 15 or 30 minutes or more, or push when they have already been through a bad experience.
I suspect that many people end up going to the media, or posting on a blog, or even here, because they are told that no comment card exists.
Your answers on this thread, if I may paraphrase, seem to be 'it shouldn't happen' and 'file a comment card'. That at least is what I am taking from your posts. And again, obtaining a comment card isn't always as easy as you so cavalierly suggest, even for those of us who are very experienced travellers.
Just for future reference, since you are obviously on the computer on a regular basis, you can always file an online commentary (positive or negative) here:
https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/talktotsa/
This app allows you to file the commentary directly with the airport you had a problem with. Now, as you can tell by the comments here, it appears that not all comments submitted are addressed as well as they could be, so your personal results may be less than what you would like. If you feel that your comments are not being addressed as they should, you can always forward things up the line, all the way to an IG complaint, as Boggie indicated above.
My comments appear that way because it is exactly what I am saying, and the way that I operate here at my airport. There should be no problem with getting a comment card, or at least some advisement and communication with the supervisor on how you can file a comment if no physical cards are available. I do not wish to sound cavalier about this issue, but it riles me up when folks do not follow the basics, and being professional and courteous, and helping passengers provide feedback is about as basic as it gets.
Apr 21, 2013, 9:03 am
#24
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
+1
You also didn't mention the intimidation factor, something that is frankly off-putting even to frequent travellers.
The first time I tried to follow up on a checkpoint problem, it was because a clowning around TSO knocked the bin containing my work laptop off the table and 10 feet away on the floor. I asked to see a supervisor for a comment card and to report the damage to the laptop. The TSO immediately demanded my BP and ID to be copied for their 'records'.
gsoltso, you might suggest that TSA needs my 'contact' information for follow-up. Really? I can supply my contact information without TSA needing a photocopy of my ID (secured how?), and why are copies of all BPs for that day's travel necessary or relevant?
On the few occasions I asked for a comment card (including one occasion when I specifically explained that I wanted the card to compliment a specific employee), the request could only be satisfied by at least a 3-striper, long waits were involved, and copies of my ID and BP(s) were necessary.
Sorry, I have no confidence in a system that makes the very act of just asking for a comment card intimidating and time-consuming, and I no longer trust TSA to not maintain my information, possibly to be used against me in the future in some way.
You also didn't mention the intimidation factor, something that is frankly off-putting even to frequent travellers.
The first time I tried to follow up on a checkpoint problem, it was because a clowning around TSO knocked the bin containing my work laptop off the table and 10 feet away on the floor. I asked to see a supervisor for a comment card and to report the damage to the laptop. The TSO immediately demanded my BP and ID to be copied for their 'records'.
gsoltso, you might suggest that TSA needs my 'contact' information for follow-up. Really? I can supply my contact information without TSA needing a photocopy of my ID (secured how?), and why are copies of all BPs for that day's travel necessary or relevant?
On the few occasions I asked for a comment card (including one occasion when I specifically explained that I wanted the card to compliment a specific employee), the request could only be satisfied by at least a 3-striper, long waits were involved, and copies of my ID and BP(s) were necessary.
Sorry, I have no confidence in a system that makes the very act of just asking for a comment card intimidating and time-consuming, and I no longer trust TSA to not maintain my information, possibly to be used against me in the future in some way.
Apr 21, 2013, 9:27 am
#25
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,681
There should never be an intimidation factor (I know that it happens, but it should not, it is unacceptable and uncalled for), and the supervisor should work with you to help you get the information to file a claim on the item. I am uncertain of the reason for the BP and ID request, unless the supervisor did an incident report to document the damage done on the item - but if that was the case, he/she should have communicated it to you before asking for the information in the first place. I personally have never asked nor seen a passenger asked for their ID/BP in order to get a comment card or explain to them how to file a comment. I am at a loss as to why that is happening based on the SOP/regs. I am sorry that it has been a chore for you to get a comment card in any way shape or form, as it should be as simple as asking for it, and if it is not available, then have it explained to you how to go about filing the comment online or via mail.
That's just the point. At many airports, intimidation when asking for a comment card is on-going, ie, 'acceptable'. IME, it is the supervisors who are most guilty - insisting on ID/BP(s) as a prerequisite just to get the form. I have never seen the forms readily available; I have always had to ask for them, and my requests have always been escalated to at least a 3-striper. That always meant 1) a wait while my request was escalated from a TSO to a LTSO to a STSO and 2) a further wait while the STSO went somewhere to get the forms (if they were even available) and to copy my ID/BP(s).
This is all aside from the on-going practice of (some) TSOs/LTSOs/STSOs of concealing their badges and refusing to provide some identifying information for the comment card.
'as simple as asking for it'? Why should I have to ask for a comment card? Why do such requests have to be escalated to a three-striper? Why aren't the forms readily available at the checkpoint, the way they are kept next to the register at some businesses?
You point out alternate methods of submitting a concern - re-read exbayern's comments. Infrequent travelers, non-FT readers, non-internet savvy folks (it isn't a pre-requisite to be Einstein to travel in this country) - they should have an easy, normal, familiar, non-intimidating way to submit feedback, not be expected to canvass the internet looking for information about the OIG or an FSD or other means of submitting feedback. If a fast food place or a merchant can make it quick and easy to supply feedback (positive or negative), why can't TSA?
To be perfectly honest, I'm a frequent flyer who wouldn't have a clue about the OIG or FSD if I didn't read this forum (not that I have any confidence that they address problems anyway - need I mention EWR?)
We know that TSA monitors this and other forums. Simple issues like the intimidation and inconvenience involved in getting comment cards or identifying information on errant employees have been documented here. The folks at your organization who monitor this forum are aware that these practices are reported to occur regularly. Equally clearly, they choose to ignore the reports in this forum, refuse to even check into the possiblity that these practices are widespread. Am I supposed to believe that submitting a comment card documenting that a supervisor who refused to supply the information necessary to identify him/her took 30 minutes and demanded a copy of my ID/BP as a prerequisite to being given a comment card (or lied and said no cards were available without telling me other options - specific options with specific details) is going to get any more attention?
You may care, but it is clear that others in your organization, particularly at higher pay grades, do not.
Last edited by chollie; Apr 21, 2013 at 9:34 am
Apr 21, 2013, 9:50 am
#26
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,967
NO, it is not a shame.
What is a shame is
1) that your employer places people in a position where they do need a comment card for any form of improvement (and frankly, how does one prove that things improved for the next traveller?)
2) that anyone should have to push for a comment card because none are available
3) that you continue to tell us that it is the best recourse
Let me give you a comparison. Last week as I often do I flew from LHR. I had zero issue with the screeners, as usual, but as usual I had to deal with American shoe-removers. And I also had a heckler behind me who felt that I was not doing things properly because I was not preparing myself for the TSA checkpoint. I was sick and tired of hearing this garbage week after week after week at LHR, CDG, FRA etc so I decided that it was time for follow up again.
First I pressed the green button. Yes, the green button. The buttons where one can give immediate, anonymous feedback about the screening experience. Then I took a comment card. Yes, the comment cards which are amply stocked next to the survey buttons. Then I looked for a pen, but couldn't find one, so I went to the supervisor podium and asked for one. They cheerfully gave me one, but when the person saw that I intended to use it to fill in a comment card, she asked 'Is everything all right?!' I said 'yes', and filled in the suggestion which I give to LHR a few times a year ('Please have a seperate lane for Americans who insist on shoe removal and demand to be scanned as that makes us all 'safer') I turned it to her whilst I was writing, and she burst out laughing, and said 'GOOD for you!' I returned her pen to her, and dropped off the comment card in the box, and headed to the lounge.
gsoltso, that is what it should be like.
1) anonymous survey directly at the exit of the screening area
2) comment cards freely available
3) supervisor offering assistance (not looking to blame the passenger, or demanding ID, or a boarding card) when the passenger feels the need to fill out a comment card
A few weeks ago at LHR another American was berating me for not having full physical ability, as it meant that the woman who did a bag check was kindly helping me to put my things back properly, and he felt that she shouldn't be wasting her time with me just because I have some physical limitations. She finally finished with me, and then unsolicited went to get a supervisor and suggested to him that I may have some feedback.
I gave my feedback (it was entirely positive about the screening staff, thanking them for their kindness and assistance, and I did tell him that the American was awful to me, which apparently supported what the screener told the supervisor) The supervisor thanked me, apologised for the poor behaviour of another passenger, and 'went to have a quiet word with him' before he left the screening area.
Your repeated blaming of the passenger for not pushing harder to provide feedback is just one more indication of what is wrong with your entire agency. The onus shouldn't be on the passenger to fix your problems, nor should it be on the passenger to go to so much effort to even voice their concerns.
What is a shame is
1) that your employer places people in a position where they do need a comment card for any form of improvement (and frankly, how does one prove that things improved for the next traveller?)
2) that anyone should have to push for a comment card because none are available
3) that you continue to tell us that it is the best recourse
Let me give you a comparison. Last week as I often do I flew from LHR. I had zero issue with the screeners, as usual, but as usual I had to deal with American shoe-removers. And I also had a heckler behind me who felt that I was not doing things properly because I was not preparing myself for the TSA checkpoint. I was sick and tired of hearing this garbage week after week after week at LHR, CDG, FRA etc so I decided that it was time for follow up again.
First I pressed the green button. Yes, the green button. The buttons where one can give immediate, anonymous feedback about the screening experience. Then I took a comment card. Yes, the comment cards which are amply stocked next to the survey buttons. Then I looked for a pen, but couldn't find one, so I went to the supervisor podium and asked for one. They cheerfully gave me one, but when the person saw that I intended to use it to fill in a comment card, she asked 'Is everything all right?!' I said 'yes', and filled in the suggestion which I give to LHR a few times a year ('Please have a seperate lane for Americans who insist on shoe removal and demand to be scanned as that makes us all 'safer') I turned it to her whilst I was writing, and she burst out laughing, and said 'GOOD for you!' I returned her pen to her, and dropped off the comment card in the box, and headed to the lounge.
gsoltso, that is what it should be like.
1) anonymous survey directly at the exit of the screening area
2) comment cards freely available
3) supervisor offering assistance (not looking to blame the passenger, or demanding ID, or a boarding card) when the passenger feels the need to fill out a comment card
A few weeks ago at LHR another American was berating me for not having full physical ability, as it meant that the woman who did a bag check was kindly helping me to put my things back properly, and he felt that she shouldn't be wasting her time with me just because I have some physical limitations. She finally finished with me, and then unsolicited went to get a supervisor and suggested to him that I may have some feedback.
I gave my feedback (it was entirely positive about the screening staff, thanking them for their kindness and assistance, and I did tell him that the American was awful to me, which apparently supported what the screener told the supervisor) The supervisor thanked me, apologised for the poor behaviour of another passenger, and 'went to have a quiet word with him' before he left the screening area.
Your repeated blaming of the passenger for not pushing harder to provide feedback is just one more indication of what is wrong with your entire agency. The onus shouldn't be on the passenger to fix your problems, nor should it be on the passenger to go to so much effort to even voice their concerns.
Apr 21, 2013, 9:58 am
#27
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,110
I understand what you are saying, and pushing to a certain point will be an intensely personal choice. The average passenger will not push much, and that is a shame, if faced with a supervisor that will not work with them at all, they should push. The information is on our websites, and it should be honored with no exceptions. There is another case I mentioned earlier, if there are no physical cards available (and this does happen from time to time), then the supervisor should work with you (or any passenger) to explain what options you have to make your comments - they should give the passenger the website information on how to file a comment online, also the local customer service representatives name and if they would like it, a mailing address. Again, this puts the onus back on the passenger, and I understand that this is not how things should be in an ideal situation.
Just for future reference, since you are obviously on the computer on a regular basis, you can always file an online commentary (positive or negative) here:
https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/talktotsa/
This app allows you to file the commentary directly with the airport you had a problem with. Now, as you can tell by the comments here, it appears that not all comments submitted are addressed as well as they could be, so your personal results may be less than what you would like. If you feel that your comments are not being addressed as they should, you can always forward things up the line, all the way to an IG complaint, as Boggie indicated above.
My comments appear that way because it is exactly what I am saying, and the way that I operate here at my airport. There should be no problem with getting a comment card, or at least some advisement and communication with the supervisor on how you can file a comment if no physical cards are available. I do not wish to sound cavalier about this issue, but it riles me up when folks do not follow the basics, and being professional and courteous, and helping passengers provide feedback is about as basic as it gets.
Just for future reference, since you are obviously on the computer on a regular basis, you can always file an online commentary (positive or negative) here:
https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/talktotsa/
This app allows you to file the commentary directly with the airport you had a problem with. Now, as you can tell by the comments here, it appears that not all comments submitted are addressed as well as they could be, so your personal results may be less than what you would like. If you feel that your comments are not being addressed as they should, you can always forward things up the line, all the way to an IG complaint, as Boggie indicated above.
My comments appear that way because it is exactly what I am saying, and the way that I operate here at my airport. There should be no problem with getting a comment card, or at least some advisement and communication with the supervisor on how you can file a comment if no physical cards are available. I do not wish to sound cavalier about this issue, but it riles me up when folks do not follow the basics, and being professional and courteous, and helping passengers provide feedback is about as basic as it gets.
Until senior TSA clerks decide to take charge or Congress gets the backbone to make some needed changes nothing is going to be different a year or even 10 years from now at TSA. I think the best path forward is to make the airlines and airports responsible for the security over their property and customers and get government out of the picture except for minimal oversight functions.
TSA is a total waste of money.
Apr 21, 2013, 10:00 am
#28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,110
There should never be an intimidation factor (I know that it happens, but it should not, it is unacceptable and uncalled for), and the supervisor should work with you to help you get the information to file a claim on the item. I am uncertain of the reason for the BP and ID request, unless the supervisor did an incident report to document the damage done on the item - but if that was the case, he/she should have communicated it to you before asking for the information in the first place. I personally have never asked nor seen a passenger asked for their ID/BP in order to get a comment card or explain to them how to file a comment. I am at a loss as to why that is happening based on the SOP/regs. I am sorry that it has been a chore for you to get a comment card in any way shape or form, as it should be as simple as asking for it, and if it is not available, then have it explained to you how to go about filing the comment online or via mail.
Apr 21, 2013, 10:10 am
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,110
http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2012/11...ao-reports.htm
http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/650115.pdf
So just how much of a heads up does TSA "Leadership" need to understand that something is broken?
I would suggest a non-desire to fix problems rather than a professional organization that wants to do a good job and is proactive in its actions.
The GAO found that despite having five "mechanisms" for collecting the thousands of screening complaints it gets, the TSA has no agencywide policy or process for dealing with them.
The GAO report, TSA Could Improve Complaint Processes, shows that from October 2009 through June 2012, TSA received more than 39,000 screening complaints through its TSA Contact Center (TCC). However, the TSA has no clear process for analyzing the nature or seriousness of the complaints, partly because the airport-based TSA staffs have wide discretion in implementing the complaint process.
The GAO report, TSA Could Improve Complaint Processes, shows that from October 2009 through June 2012, TSA received more than 39,000 screening complaints through its TSA Contact Center (TCC). However, the TSA has no clear process for analyzing the nature or seriousness of the complaints, partly because the airport-based TSA staffs have wide discretion in implementing the complaint process.
http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/650115.pdf
AIR PASSENGER SCREENING
Transportation Security Administration Could Improve Complaint Processes
Transportation Security Administration Could Improve Complaint Processes
I would suggest a non-desire to fix problems rather than a professional organization that wants to do a good job and is proactive in its actions.
Apr 21, 2013, 10:25 am
#30
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,681
gsoltso, I will quote a few words from Boggie Dog's cite above:
"...airport-based TSA staffs have wide discretion in implementing the complaint process".
Just a reminder that because you, in your words, "personally have never asked nor seen a passenger asked for their ID/BP in order to get a comment card or explain to them how to file a comment. I am at a loss as to why that is happening based on the SOP/regs", it suggests that perhaps you missed something in the SOP/regs, ie, the 'wide discretion' airport-based TSA staffs have in 'implementing the complaint process' (or, perhaps more accurately, 'suppressing the complaint process').
"...airport-based TSA staffs have wide discretion in implementing the complaint process".
Just a reminder that because you, in your words, "personally have never asked nor seen a passenger asked for their ID/BP in order to get a comment card or explain to them how to file a comment. I am at a loss as to why that is happening based on the SOP/regs", it suggests that perhaps you missed something in the SOP/regs, ie, the 'wide discretion' airport-based TSA staffs have in 'implementing the complaint process' (or, perhaps more accurately, 'suppressing the complaint process').