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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   confiscating non-"weapons" (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1367052-confiscating-non-weapons.html)

medic51vrf Jul 16, 2012 3:08 pm


Originally Posted by saulblum (Post 18941456)
Maybe the TSA should also have access to my recent library borrowing records and my Amazon and B&N accounts, just to be sure I haven't been reading any nasty books. And gain access to my web browsing history. And be able to look through my laptop for any nasty documents.

Unless you think that only books with 72-point titles shouting "HOW TO BRING A BOMB ONTO AN AIRCRAFT" are worthy of scrutiny.

Or unless you are trolling.

LOL. Not trolling in the slightest, nor am I suggesting that the TSA (or any other organization) should have access to the things you mentioned without probable cause and/or a warrant.

What I AM suggesting (as a former LEO among other things) is that if you draw negative attention to yourself you can expect to potentially recieve negative attention in return.

Two examples:

1) A cop stops two cars. The first one is a 67 year old clean cut man who has a bible on his seat and says he's on his way to church. The second is a 27 year old man who looks like a biker and has an instruction manual on cooking meth and says "Where I'm going is none of your f'ing business". The first guy MAY be a meth cook and the second guy COULD be student studying for a masters theisis on ways to manufacture non addictive stimulants for use in the military (or whatever, only an example) but who do you think the cop is going to pay more attention to.

2) The CIA is reviewing phone records of two individuals. One routinely calls a known terrorist. The other calls a variety of people who are not known terrorists. The first may be the mother of said terrorist and is trying to reform thier child. The second may be communicating with a yet unknown sleeper cell but again who do you think is going to attract the most attention?

bankops Jul 16, 2012 3:10 pm


Originally Posted by RxFlyer (Post 18941562)
Now, what if the book is in Arabic (or any other language not spoken by the screener).

Didn't you mean: Now, what if the book is in English, or Arabic (or any other written language not understood by the screener).

:p

Jokes aside, the day TSA starts requiring printed materials to be removed as a threat is the day we might as well burn the constitution on that big old pile of burning books, no?

Stop the theater for theater's sake. It is the biggest erosion of the US Constitution of all time.

lovely15 Jul 16, 2012 3:10 pm


Originally Posted by medic51vrf (Post 18941630)
1) A cop stops two cars. The first one is a 67 year old clean cut man who has a bible on his seat and says he's on his way to church. The second is a 27 year old man who looks like a biker and has an instruction manual on cooking meth and says "Where I'm going is none of your f'ing business". The first guy MAY be a meth cook and the second guy COULD be student studying for a masters theisis on ways to manufacture non addictive stimulants for use in the military (or whatever, only an example) but who do you think the cop is going to pay more attention to.

Your example would make a lot more sense if I looked suspicious. Acting rudely is completely different from acting suspicious and in fact is probably a guarantee that I am NOT a terrorist, because what terrorist would want to draw more attention to himself?

Regardless, I have no desire to be polite to any screener - for reasons I've already mentioned.

Boggie Dog Jul 16, 2012 3:10 pm


Originally Posted by medic51vrf (Post 18941407)
Do you really not understand how a person holding detailed written plans on how to build a bomb and get said device onto an aircraft might be viewed as a threat when attempting to board a commercial airliner?

They proably don't and I never suggested that they did.

I never mentioned a single word about me feeling unsafe. I only spoke about what THE TSA might think was unsafe and how making them feel so (or disrespected) would not work to the OPs advantage.


No, I do not understand how that person would be viewed as a threat.

Explain it to me please.

Boggie Dog Jul 16, 2012 3:12 pm


Originally Posted by lovely15 (Post 18941438)
I don't see that as a threat.

If he was really going to blow the plane up, most likely he'd have figured out to do it without carrying the instructions....

If the person had a nuke why would they even need to board a plane and what does that say for TSA screening?

Boggie Dog Jul 16, 2012 3:13 pm


Originally Posted by medic51vrf (Post 18941430)
Nope... And totally irrelevant to this conversation, unless the book was a "how to" manual about commiting a murder on an aircraft.

It is exactly relevant. A book is not a threat. A map is not a threat.

medic51vrf Jul 16, 2012 3:15 pm


Originally Posted by RxFlyer (Post 18941562)
OK, let's say that a passenger is carrying a book on how to do just that. In bold letters on the front is the title: "How to blow up an airplane" Your posts seem to indicate that you are fine with that book being confiscated by the TSA.

Now, what if the book is in Arabic (or any other language not spoken by the screener). Is it any less dangerous because the TSA has no idea what it says? Should they let it pass? Should they confiscate all books or papers that the screeners can not understand?

I realize that I'm going a bit overboard here, but the fact is that the OP's airline charts are:
1. legal to own
2. not prohibited by TSA policy (except maybe those super secret policies that we can't see but are still expected to abide by)
3. not particularly suspicious

The TSA screener in question had no more right to demand to see a pilot ID and then confiscate the charts than he would to see a medical license if someone is carrying a copy of the New England Journal of Medicine.

Of course, I can't comment on what my post seems to indicate to you but what you've suggest is not how I feel. What I'm saying is that, regardless of what is legally/morally right and wrong, having that book in your possession would attact unwanted negative attention by the TSA (or any LEO that found it).

No the book would not be any less (or more) dangerous if it was written in Arabic (or any other language), just less obvious to someone who wasn't able to read the title. Whether they SHOULD let it or any other item pass is not the point I was trying to make.

Regarding your 3 points about the OPs original post and the following paragraph, I agree completely and I don't think I ever said otherwise.

Boggie Dog Jul 16, 2012 3:15 pm


Originally Posted by bankops (Post 18941536)
I don't mean in the legal sense, but "throw it away or you are not flying today" is really the same thing. Being forced to give it up or having it forceably taken away is a fine line.

I agree, coercion is the same as theft in this case.

mules Jul 16, 2012 3:20 pm

Would you be willing to get a copy of the security tape? It would support your case with the authorities that you are complaining to. That way too they could identify the person needing "retraining".

Caradoc Jul 16, 2012 3:21 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 18941674)
A book is not a threat.

..except to the TSA, which owes its entire existence to the uneducated.

medic51vrf Jul 16, 2012 3:23 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 18941652)
No, I do not understand how that person would be viewed as a threat.

Explain it to me please.

<sigh>

Ok, let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that you will understand.

When a person posseses detailed plans on how to commit a criminal act (in this example making a bomb and blowing up an aircraft) and then places themselves in a position where that act can be committed (on an aircraft) the people hired to protect the asset (the plane) from the act (blowing it up) will (rightly or wrongly) view this as a potential threat due to multiple (if not all) of the elements of the crime being present.

Clear enough?

MaximumSisu Jul 16, 2012 3:38 pm


Originally Posted by medic51vrf (Post 18941630)
as a former LEO

I think we've identified the origin of your approach to civil rights and the Constitution. You studied how to get around the Constitution, not how to honor it.

When did you stop beating confessions out of your prisoners?

patom Jul 16, 2012 3:46 pm

After reading this thread I'm glad we have an"ignore" function.

cparekh Jul 16, 2012 4:27 pm

Our government is required to protect our right to read, say, write, and think whatever we want, outside some defined exceptions. A manual on how to make a bomb may seem threatening to some, and it might not seem threatening to others, but that is not the relevant question.

The question is whether an item poses an actual and immediate threat to safety. It might seem reprehensible for someone to know how to make a bomb, but our government must protect our right to learn how to do that as vigorously as it must stop someone from actually making and using a bomb.

I understand the two tasks can be at odds with each other, but that is exactly the point. The government does not have the power to govern what I know or learn, and to some degree, whether or not I want to do that on a plane or at home.

GaryD Jul 16, 2012 4:27 pm


Originally Posted by medic51vrf (Post 18941199)
Just so I'm understanding what you're saying, you're telling me that the TRANSPORT SAFETY Authority has no business in not allowing you to bring detailed plans on how to destroy an aircraft onto said aircraft? :confused::confused::confused:

If so, we are miles apart on this one.

So are we. That is beyond their authority, such as it is.

Not a weapon or an incendiary device.

Sure, do another search, but take your papers? No, no way.


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