confiscating non-"weapons"
 

Yes, I realize the TSA claims they do not confiscate anything, but that passengers voluntarily surrender the items. That may be, but I had an odd situation happen a few days ago that I'm wondering about.

Long story short, for reasons that aren't really relevant to my question, I had packed a number of aviation navigation charts in my carry-on before departing DFW on Friday. Got to the checkpoint (PreCheck, no less), and the following ensued:

TSO: we need to check your bag
Me: Ok....
TSO (digs through, finds charts, starts waving them around): What are these?
Me (confused, but seeing an opportunity): Looks like a low altitude enroute chart and approach plates to me
TSO: Why do you have these?
Me: Why do you want to know?
TSO: Are you a pilot?
Me: Why do you want to know?
TSO: You're going to have to show me ID
Me (flashing GE card I already had out): Here you go
TSO: Pilot ID.
Me: Who says I'm a pilot?
TSO (looking suspicious): I'm going to have to throw these out
(tosses them in garbage can)
Me (grabbing bag and walking off): Thanks for costing me $15, jackass.

So my questions are:
1. Why does the TSA claim they do not confiscate items when they clearly do?
2. Can they confiscate items that are clearly not weapons? Yes, I realize liquids aren't weapons, but at least they're listed as such. Paper isn't, as far as I know.
3. Would playing nice have changed anything?

PS - I still don't know what they saw on the x-ray that caused the bag search to begin with. I'm guessing they got sidetracked by my chart contraband.

File a complaint right away. This is so wrong:mad: You would not want to know what I would've told them & no they wouldn't taken a thing from me. You did nothing wrong.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...ted-items.shtm
I wonder what that particular clerk thought the resale value was of those charts.

While I'd love to nail them for interfering with a flight crew member (since yes, that even applies to GA pilots), I know it'll never happen.

Like I said - I know most things they consider weapons aren't actually. I just wondered if they were "allowed" to confiscate and if anyone has experienced them confiscating items that aren't on the prohibited item list. I know I phrased it badly the first time around.

File a complaint. Press the issue.

This is the number I have for the DFW TSA CSM.

Chuck Sloan

Customer Service Manager

Transportation Security Administration

DFW International Airport

O. 469.948.1828

C. 817.233.0432

F. 972.745.4369

Also notify the ACLU. They shouldn't even be looking through papers once they've determined that they are papers.

Why would the ACLU care? They haven't done much with the TSA yet, as far as I know.

And to be fair, him didn't open them and shuffle through. I think the FAA logo on the front probably set him off - it's pretty obvious that they are aviation navigation charts.

So? They're still just paper.

I know. And hence my question - can they confiscate items that aren't on their prohibited item list. Seems like the answer is so.

I'm sure they will claim they were confiscated because they are a security risk, but I mean, wouldn't the fact I had charts to land an airplane prove I didn't have nefarious intent? :confused:

I am a GA pilot and regularly fly commmercial in the US with headset, radio and charts in my carryon and have only ever had CBP make any comment. Even that was to agree that I was telling the truth about my plans [though I am a US citizen and have no responsibility to prove my travel plans to enter the country]. TSA have never said anything but I am not sure if they have ever searched my bag when I had charts in them.

You definately need to complain. Yes, we all know it will end up with a "has been retrained" toilet paper supplement, but please complain.

TSA cannot confiscate, at least not legally. Your charts were stolen nothing less.

Yes, they can confiscate items not on their list but they need to be security threats. Throwing away paper charts that I also have on my kindle, my pc and maybe even my portable aviation GPS or Electronic flightbag is just plain right up TSA's alley....useless.

This:mad:

Yes, please complain. Consider contacting AOPA if you are a member, even if you are not, this is an issue they would be very interested in. They most definitely should be aware of this incident. I know plenty of pilots traveling with charts. The idea that TSA would confiscate navigational charts is absurd!

No TSA cannot confiscate items. At least not legally.

TSA must give the traveler a choice to give the item to someone else, check it in checked luggage, return it to their car, or mail it to themselves.

The OP had his/her property stolen by a TSA employee. That TSA employee should be charged for theft and tried in a court of law. There can be no tolerance for TSA abuse of the public and it will not stop until these TSA criminals are taken to task.

1) The TSA isn't authorized to "confiscate" anything. They do, however, appear to have a really broad definition of "voluntary surrender" that a large percentage of rational people would classify as "confiscation" or "theft."

2) The problem is that the individual clerk is authorized to call anything they like a "security threat." Got a cupcake? The TSA clerk might just claim their low blood sugar makes that cupcake a "security threat" because they might faint while gazing upon its deliciousness.

So is a detailed written plan on how to build a bomb and sneak it on an aircraft.

That's not the issue.

I don't think the charts would be prohibited per se but I also don't think that the OP was wise in copping attitude with the TSO. Regardless of whether the individual is right or wrong it's never a smart move to pick a fight with an authority figure. What do you have to gain by doing this? AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT the guy with the badge invariably has the upper hand and you will come off second best every time. Once again I have to quote (well, ok, paraphrase) Sun Tzu in The Art of War "Never enter a battle unless you can win it and never start a war unless the benefits of winning the war outweigh the costs of waging the war." In this case the was no chance of winning the battle and the costs of waging the war probably outweighed any sence of moral victory achieved by this thread.

A simple, polite response would have been a better move in my opinion.

If the charts weren't of the route/area the OP was flying it shouldn't have been an issue at all. If they were of the route, a simple "I'm an aviation fan and I was curious as to what was in the area. Not much diffenet than the route map displayed on the IFE, really. Thanks for showing an interest in my safety. Have a nice day" might have saved him/her $15 and a bit of grief.

Not picking on anyone, just stating the facts as I see them....

Edit: Oh, and regards to the TSA "confiscating" things, what they will say (and I suppose they're technically correct although I disagree) is that they don't confiscate the items. You don't have to give them up but if you don't you don't fly. The decision is yours.

Well, an iPad certainly wouldn't have brought scrutiny. I prefer to fly with paper charts though.

Didn't even think about this, I will definitely contact them.

Why?

That would be a lie. I prefer to NOT lie to them, so I can make sure all my interactions have the law on my side if it comes to that. And the truth isn't any of their business.

But, I think that is EXACTLY the issue. Whether you have the NY Times, flight manuals, the Quran, or plans to build a bomb and sneak it onto an aircraft, it's all just paper and far outside the WEI purview of the TSA. The TSA has no business deciding what is allowable for anyone else to read.

For the exact reasons I mentioned.

Regarding your second comment, I was only giving an example. I wasn't suggesting lieing to them. I was only suggesting a way of turing a potential negative interaction into a neutral or positive one.

Well, having my charts stolen is a minor inconvenience. It's not like they arrested me for it, nor took something I couldn't replace in 15 minutes at my destination airport. So I still see no reason to be polite to them (as a rule, I am not).

(Yes, I realized if I asked if acting polite would have changed anything, but that's most academic, as I'm never polite to them anyway)

Just so I'm understanding what you're saying, you're telling me that the TRANSPORT SAFETY Authority has no business in not allowing you to bring detailed plans on how to destroy an aircraft onto said aircraft? :confused::confused::confused:

If so, we are miles apart on this one.

So what? If they don't have the materials (i.e., NOT PAPER) to complete it, then the paper itself represents no threat.

Did you attempt to escalate to anyone at the checkpoint - supervisor, manager? After tossing the charts in the garbage, did the screener walk away - I would have just reached in the garbage and took them back as they had no real basis for tossing them in the first place.

I've got a book that describes how to make a nuclear bomb. Should the TSA take it from me before I get on a plane?

Being impolite is your decision and (if an American) literally your constitutional right. However, you need to realise that it will invariably have negative consequences, particularly when dealing with an authority figure.

I don't like the TSA but I also don't like causing problems for myself. What do I have to gain by being rude or impolite? Grief and heartache, that's all. Personally, I've found that there are plenty of people willing to provide that on their own (many of whom wear a TSA uniform) and I don't see the need to add to it. I'm better than that and smarter than that. (Not intended as an insult toward you, just an opinion about myself)

I also believe that you'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar...

In any case, don't take anything I've said as a personal affront against you. It wasn't intended that way.

Only if they discover the highly enriched uranium in your carry-on. :D

No, he stood there next to it and I was hungry so I just left. :D

I like to escalate stuff most times, but I had other stuff on my mind that day.

No offense taken.

I went through a few years where I was friendly and polite to them. It ended up making me feel dirty and like a collaborator, so I stopped.

True, but to the TSA the (possibly) associated mens rea might....

How would such plans threaten that flight?

How do aeronautical charts of any kind threaten flight safety?

If I won't promise to not say boo are you going to feel unsafe?

Take the DTW FSD to small claims court.

I am serious.

Not necessarily, but it would draw unwanted attention and if said book included details on how to get the bomb on a commercial airliner that would probably move them to do so.

So should TSA confiscates books that have murder plots as a theme?

How on Earth was the TSO showing any interest in the OP's safety?

Mike

Do you really not understand how a person holding detailed written plans on how to build a bomb and get said device onto an aircraft might be viewed as a threat when attempting to board a commercial airliner?

They proably don't and I never suggested that they did.

I never mentioned a single word about me feeling unsafe. I only spoke about what THE TSA might think was unsafe and how making them feel so (or disrespected) would not work to the OPs advantage.

Nope... And totally irrelevant to this conversation, unless the book was a "how to" manual about commiting a murder on an aircraft.

I never said that they were. As previously stated, I was simply illustrating a way of turing a potential negative interaction into a positive (or at least neutral).

I don't see that as a threat.

If he was really going to blow the plane up, most likely he'd have figured out to do it without carrying the instructions....

Maybe the TSA should also have access to my recent library borrowing records and my Amazon and B&N accounts, just to be sure I haven't been reading any nasty books. And gain access to my web browsing history. And be able to look through my laptop for any nasty documents.

Unless you think that only books with 72-point titles shouting "HOW TO BRING A BOMB ONTO AN AIRCRAFT" are worthy of scrutiny.

Or unless you are trolling.