New SPOT program: TSA agents observing behavior and collecting passenger data.
Aug 6, 2011, 12:56 pm
#31
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Most states will require a copy of a utility bill or some other proof - very few states will let you verbally declare an address and be OK with that.
Hawai'i, for example, will let you verbally declare an address for a DL, but require proof of residency for a state ID card.
Aug 6, 2011, 1:25 pm
#32
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Leaving some items on the above noted form blank does not necessarily or even ordinarily result in a denial of passport. [People just tend to volunteer more information than is necessary when dealing with government officials and/or forms and don't consider the possibilities when not volunteering all that is requested when seeking a service from the government to which a person is legally entitled.]
There is a push by some in government (and some beyond) to change that and require a SSA number as a a condition to issue a passport, but it's sometime before that will occur, and it's unlikely to apply in full retroactively.
While a failure to include a SSA number when engaging in a financial transaction with the State Department as a US person may expose a US person to some civil liability with the US Treasury (IRS), it does not necessarily result in such outcome for all persons doing so.
DHS is well capable of using credit card payment information in submitted PNRs to pull up SSA numbers of most US passengers. Remember that government paranoia about cash and cash payment? Reducing/restricting use of cash helps the government to increase its power to monitor and control people.
Last edited by GUWonder; Aug 6, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Aug 6, 2011, 1:34 pm
#33
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J. Edgar Hoovers days as the head of the FBI, they already know everything about you.
And if they need more information, they can subscribe to the commercial marketing services who gather data from all those store loyalty cards and credit cards, these companies can tell them almost everything about your life style and your spending habits.
So unless you are a hermit and live in a cave, Big Brother already knows all about you.
Scary isnt it.
Anyone have an idea how by using the FOIA to get a copy of their TSA file.
Mr. Elliott
Aug 6, 2011, 1:52 pm
#34
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A lot of US passports have been issued without a Social Security Administration number being submitted. It is still readily possible to get a US passport by applying for an initial and/or renewal passport without submitting a SSA number.
Leaving some items on the above noted form blank does not necessarily or even ordinarily result in a denial of passport. [People just tend to volunteer more information than is necessary when dealing with government officials and/or forms and don't consider the possibilities when not volunteering all that is requested when seeking a service from the government to which a person is legally entitled.]
There is a push by some in government (and some beyond) to change that and require a SSA number as a a condition to issue a passport, but it's sometime before that will occur, and it's unlikely to apply in full retroactively.
While a failure to include a SSA number when engaging in a financial transaction with the State Department as a US person may expose a US person to some civil liability with the US Treasury (IRS), it does not necessarily result in such outcome for all persons doing so.
Leaving some items on the above noted form blank does not necessarily or even ordinarily result in a denial of passport. [People just tend to volunteer more information than is necessary when dealing with government officials and/or forms and don't consider the possibilities when not volunteering all that is requested when seeking a service from the government to which a person is legally entitled.]
There is a push by some in government (and some beyond) to change that and require a SSA number as a a condition to issue a passport, but it's sometime before that will occur, and it's unlikely to apply in full retroactively.
While a failure to include a SSA number when engaging in a financial transaction with the State Department as a US person may expose a US person to some civil liability with the US Treasury (IRS), it does not necessarily result in such outcome for all persons doing so.
Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 USC 6039E) requires you to provide your Social Security Number (SSN), if you have one, when you apply for a U.S. passport or renewal of a U.S. passport. If you have not been issued a SSN, enter zeros in box #5 of this form. If you are
residing abroad, you must also provide the name of the foreign country in which you are residing. The Department of State must provide your SSN
and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury. If you fail to provide the information, you are subject to a $500 penalty enforced
by the IRS. All questions on this matter should be directed to the nearest IRS office.
residing abroad, you must also provide the name of the foreign country in which you are residing. The Department of State must provide your SSN
and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury. If you fail to provide the information, you are subject to a $500 penalty enforced
by the IRS. All questions on this matter should be directed to the nearest IRS office.
(a) General rule
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any individual who
(1) applies for a United States passport (or a renewal thereof), or
(2) applies to be lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws,
shall include with any such application a statement which includes the information described in subsection (b).
(b) Information to be provided
Information required under subsection (a) shall include
(1) the taxpayers TIN (if any),
(2) in the case of a passport applicant, any foreign country in which such individual is residing,
(3) in the case of an individual seeking permanent residence, information with respect to whether such individual is required to file a return of the tax imposed by chapter 1 for such individuals most recent 3 taxable years, and
(4) such other information as the Secretary may prescribe.
(c) Penalty
Any individual failing to provide a statement required under subsection (a) shall be subject to a penalty equal to $500 for each such failure, unless it is shown that such failure is due to reasonable cause and not to willful neglect.
(d) Information to be provided to Secretary
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any agency of the United States which collects (or is required to collect) the statement under subsection (a) shall
(1) provide any such statement to the Secretary, and
(2) provide to the Secretary the name (and any other identifying information) of any individual refusing to comply with the provisions of subsection (a).
Nothing in the preceding sentence shall be construed to require the disclosure of information which is subject to section 245A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (as in effect on the date of the enactment of this sentence).
(e) Exemption
The Secretary may by regulations exempt any class of individuals from the requirements of this section if he determines that applying this section to such individuals is not necessary to carry out the purposes of this section.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any individual who
(1) applies for a United States passport (or a renewal thereof), or
(2) applies to be lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws,
shall include with any such application a statement which includes the information described in subsection (b).
(b) Information to be provided
Information required under subsection (a) shall include
(1) the taxpayers TIN (if any),
(2) in the case of a passport applicant, any foreign country in which such individual is residing,
(3) in the case of an individual seeking permanent residence, information with respect to whether such individual is required to file a return of the tax imposed by chapter 1 for such individuals most recent 3 taxable years, and
(4) such other information as the Secretary may prescribe.
(c) Penalty
Any individual failing to provide a statement required under subsection (a) shall be subject to a penalty equal to $500 for each such failure, unless it is shown that such failure is due to reasonable cause and not to willful neglect.
(d) Information to be provided to Secretary
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any agency of the United States which collects (or is required to collect) the statement under subsection (a) shall
(1) provide any such statement to the Secretary, and
(2) provide to the Secretary the name (and any other identifying information) of any individual refusing to comply with the provisions of subsection (a).
Nothing in the preceding sentence shall be construed to require the disclosure of information which is subject to section 245A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (as in effect on the date of the enactment of this sentence).
(e) Exemption
The Secretary may by regulations exempt any class of individuals from the requirements of this section if he determines that applying this section to such individuals is not necessary to carry out the purposes of this section.
Aug 6, 2011, 1:55 pm
#35
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Does anybody have a list of states that will do this? I think this is a great idea.
Imagine a scenario where TSA stops you and demands ID. You refuse. TSA calls law enforcement over. They demand ID. You ask what crime you're suspected of, and mention that they cannot require ID without some sort of reason. They push. You finally acquiesce, only to give them something from a state you don't live in with a post office box (or private mailbox somewhere) as an address.
Imagine a scenario where TSA stops you and demands ID. You refuse. TSA calls law enforcement over. They demand ID. You ask what crime you're suspected of, and mention that they cannot require ID without some sort of reason. They push. You finally acquiesce, only to give them something from a state you don't live in with a post office box (or private mailbox somewhere) as an address.
The LEOs can use threats and intimidation all they want, but until they place me under arrest, I would not turn over any ID to any LEO. Their arrest would have to be for a valid reason, or they themselves would be libel for a lawsuit.
As far as I know, and I am not a lawyer the only identification you have to give an LEO is verbally state your name only.
I think it is a good policy to keep your cell phone video camera on when going through the checkpoint, even thought it is in your carry-on, it should pick up the audio portion of any confrontation you have with an LEO or screener.
I know that some states have laws about this, but a check point is a public area and I would claim just that, so I would take the chance.
Mr. Elliott
Aug 6, 2011, 1:59 pm
#36
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Unless a state specifically requires the address on your license where you physically reside, an alternate address on your license is not a crime, nor is it providing false information.
Aug 6, 2011, 2:04 pm
#37
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Some options may come with financial penalties in some circumstances but that is not the outcome even generally. Passports still issued.
Aug 6, 2011, 2:13 pm
#38
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Two words: Phil Mocek
If you don't submit ID to a TSO, he/ she will summon an LEO to get the ID. If you refuse to give the LEO your ID, there will be trouble.
I wish PTravel (or any of our fine legal minds) would comment on the issue of the LEO handing ID to the TSO. Is an LEO free to hand my ID to anyone? For example, during a fender-bender, could the LEO hand my ID to the other driver to copy my information?
Aug 6, 2011, 2:20 pm
#39
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Aug 6, 2011, 2:24 pm
#40
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If arrested by LEO, you will have your ID taken regardless.
Best bet in all cases is document your attempted refusal to provide ID.
A good summary in USA is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
Aug 6, 2011, 2:28 pm
#41
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I meant they are 'above the law' in a real, functional, practical sense. It doesn't seem to matter if they know something is constitutionally shaky - the attitude seems to be to forge ahead and fight in court if there's any 'resistance'.
I'm thinking particularly of the 'mandatory' public comment period on the NoS. For all practical purposes, it appears that TSA thumbed its nose at the requirement - and got away with it. Sure, now the taxpayers will pony up for a pointless after-the-fact Q&A because I believe it was made clear that regardless of the after-the-fact public comments, the NoS are here to stay.
Aug 6, 2011, 2:32 pm
#42
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^ Thanks, Halls.
I meant they are 'above the law' in a real, functional, practical sense. It doesn't seem to matter if they know something is constitutionally shaky - the attitude seems to be to forge ahead and fight in court if there's any 'resistance'.
I'm thinking particularly of the 'mandatory' public comment period on the NoS. For all practical purposes, it appears that TSA thumbed its nose at the requirement - and got away with it. Sure, now the taxpayers will pony up for a pointless after-the-fact Q&A because I believe it was made clear that regardless of the after-the-fact public comments, the NoS are here to stay.
I meant they are 'above the law' in a real, functional, practical sense. It doesn't seem to matter if they know something is constitutionally shaky - the attitude seems to be to forge ahead and fight in court if there's any 'resistance'.
I'm thinking particularly of the 'mandatory' public comment period on the NoS. For all practical purposes, it appears that TSA thumbed its nose at the requirement - and got away with it. Sure, now the taxpayers will pony up for a pointless after-the-fact Q&A because I believe it was made clear that regardless of the after-the-fact public comments, the NoS are here to stay.
Aug 6, 2011, 4:17 pm
#43
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ID Requirement
No, that is a state-by-state thing. If you are being detained by a LEO you have to give ID in many cases. At the border you must give ID (obviously). If you are driving you definitely have to give ID. You do NOT have to give ID to TSA, but this has not as far as I know been extensively tested in court (to fly require proving via "other methods" that you are not a threat to the airplane or some such language.)
If arrested by LEO, you will have your ID taken regardless.
Best bet in all cases is document your attempted refusal to provide ID.
A good summary in USA is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
If arrested by LEO, you will have your ID taken regardless.
Best bet in all cases is document your attempted refusal to provide ID.
A good summary in USA is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
ID Yourself not necessarily Carry ID on your person.In regards to LEO's: "You are required to Identify Yourself" not necessarily give an ID.
Example: LEO: Let me see your DL.
ME: I don't have id on me.
LEO: What's your name & DOB?
ME: Name & DOB OR Name & DL Number
OR Passport name & number or DOB.
You must carry id when you actually need it such as driving a car.
I make it a point to NEVER carry ID when not required and even in a car I don't carry but have it in the vehicle I drive.
ADDRESS: At a State DMV even if you use a PO box you must give your residency address when getting a DL but it won't be shown on DL.@:-)
** All DL's that I know of have a electronic strip on the reverse that gives ALL info such as SS# and More when read by a electronic reader.
In addition Many ID's now have RFID's in them which can be read from afar. It is helpful for your security to keep them covered in such a manner that they cannot be read until you remove the ID. Aluminium foil works nicely to prevent the signal return from the ID.
Last edited by bajajoes; Aug 6, 2011 at 4:28 pm Reason: Add Info
Aug 6, 2011, 4:57 pm
#44
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,425
==================================================
ID Yourself not necessarily Carry ID on your person.
In regards to LEO's: "You are required to Identify Yourself" not necessarily give an ID.
Example: LEO: Let me see your DL.
ME: I don't have id on me.
LEO: What's your name & DOB?
ME: Name & DOB OR Name & DL Number
OR Passport name & number or DOB.
You must carry id when you actually need it such as driving a car.
I make it a point to NEVER carry ID when not required and even in a car I don't carry but have it in the vehicle I drive.
ADDRESS: At a State DMV even if you use a PO box you must give your residency address when getting a DL but it won't be shown on DL.@:-)
** All DL's that I know of have a electronic strip on the reverse that gives ALL info such as SS# and More when read by a electronic reader.
In addition Many ID's now have RFID's in them which can be read from afar. It is helpful for your security to keep them covered in such a manner that they cannot be read until you remove the ID. Aluminium foil works nicely to prevent the signal return from the ID.
ID Yourself not necessarily Carry ID on your person.In regards to LEO's: "You are required to Identify Yourself" not necessarily give an ID.
Example: LEO: Let me see your DL.
ME: I don't have id on me.
LEO: What's your name & DOB?
ME: Name & DOB OR Name & DL Number
OR Passport name & number or DOB.
You must carry id when you actually need it such as driving a car.
I make it a point to NEVER carry ID when not required and even in a car I don't carry but have it in the vehicle I drive.
ADDRESS: At a State DMV even if you use a PO box you must give your residency address when getting a DL but it won't be shown on DL.@:-)
** All DL's that I know of have a electronic strip on the reverse that gives ALL info such as SS# and More when read by a electronic reader.
In addition Many ID's now have RFID's in them which can be read from afar. It is helpful for your security to keep them covered in such a manner that they cannot be read until you remove the ID. Aluminium foil works nicely to prevent the signal return from the ID.
thanks for the info...
Aug 6, 2011, 6:39 pm
#45
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Posts: 58,287
^ Thanks, Halls.
I meant they are 'above the law' in a real, functional, practical sense. It doesn't seem to matter if they know something is constitutionally shaky - the attitude seems to be to forge ahead and fight in court if there's any 'resistance'.
I'm thinking particularly of the 'mandatory' public comment period on the NoS. For all practical purposes, it appears that TSA thumbed its nose at the requirement - and got away with it. Sure, now the taxpayers will pony up for a pointless after-the-fact Q&A because I believe it was made clear that regardless of the after-the-fact public comments, the NoS are here to stay.
I meant they are 'above the law' in a real, functional, practical sense. It doesn't seem to matter if they know something is constitutionally shaky - the attitude seems to be to forge ahead and fight in court if there's any 'resistance'.
I'm thinking particularly of the 'mandatory' public comment period on the NoS. For all practical purposes, it appears that TSA thumbed its nose at the requirement - and got away with it. Sure, now the taxpayers will pony up for a pointless after-the-fact Q&A because I believe it was made clear that regardless of the after-the-fact public comments, the NoS are here to stay.
I'm waiting for Blogger Bob to explain why TSA is keeping the NoS after the German police have very publicly dismissed their effectiveness. It's kind of ironic that a former police state now demonstrates more transparency than the supposed cradle of freedom.
