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False Positives on Explosives

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Old Apr 14, 2011 | 6:02 pm
  #46  
 
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Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
You conveniently left narcotics off the list.
I didn’t make a list.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Saved in case the original post was deleted.
Why? Was it that interesting a post?

Originally Posted by CalVol
Well, I think it is a big deal when I had to waste an extra 20 minutes of my time getting the extra attention...(this after being made to wait about the same for the original grope)...and I really think it is a big deal when the TSO put his hand on my pennies!
Good for you.

Originally Posted by fishferbrains
I can't believe the TSA machine wouldn't like a few "wins" under it's belt related to the scanners/puffers/etc. I don't think they've been any, can you recall one?
Yes.

Originally Posted by fishferbrains
As for proven "technology", they're called D-O-G-S. As they are a highly mobile and effective deterrent and screening force; why would we invest otherwise?
Dogs are 70% effective when they are working. And they have serious limitations as to when they “can” work, under what conditions, and are far more expensive than you might suspect not only to use but to train, maintain, and procure. Dogs have their place in the system, but are not the “be-all and end-all” of explosives detection.
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Old Apr 14, 2011 | 6:57 pm
  #47  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Dogs are 70% effective when they are working. And they have serious limitations as to when they “can” work, under what conditions, and are far more expensive than you might suspect not only to use but to train, maintain, and procure. Dogs have their place in the system, but are not the “be-all and end-all” of explosives detection.
The same thing can be said of TSA workers.

Except the 70% figure is way too high. Like 70%.
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Old Apr 14, 2011 | 8:20 pm
  #48  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Good for you.
Thank you for verifying my observations regarding the character of the typical TSA employee.
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Old Apr 14, 2011 | 8:34 pm
  #49  
 
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Originally Posted by CalVol
Thank you for verifying my observations regarding the character of the typical TSA employee.
1. What you feel about my fellow TSO's and myself is of no concern to me.
2. You are going to believe whatever you choose to. Experience in this forum tells me that the likelihood of those belief's being based on objective fact is as close to zero as one can get.
3. I honestly do not care what you think.
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Old Apr 14, 2011 | 8:48 pm
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Originally Posted by TSORon
1. What you feel about my fellow TSO's and myself is of no concern to me.
obviously
2. You are going to believe whatever you choose to.
especially in the absence of compelling reasons otherwise
Experience in this forum tells me that the likelihood of those belief's being based on objective fact is as close to zero as one can get.
I agree that you have the best experience here in determining that.
3. I honestly do not care what you think.
This sentiment is undoubtedly mutual.
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Old Apr 14, 2011 | 10:16 pm
  #51  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
I honestly do not care what you think.
Well, I do care about what and how you and all your TSA pals think because those thoughts lead you to the conclusion that you can behave in ways that weaken our country and show callous disregard for the dignity of the people who are unfortunate enough to find themselves within reach of your "authority".

I will do everything in my power to see this travesty brought to an end.
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Old Apr 15, 2011 | 8:54 am
  #52  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
1. What you feel about my fellow TSO's and myself is of no concern to me.
2. You are going to believe whatever you choose to. Experience in this forum tells me that the likelihood of those belief's being based on objective fact is as close to zero as one can get.
3. I honestly do not care what you think.
Thank you for verifying my observations regarding the character of the typical TSA employee.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 12:47 pm
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by fishferbrains
As for proven "technology", they're called D-O-G-S. As they are a highly mobile and effective deterrent and screening force; why would we invest otherwise?
Because people would invariably compare the canine intelligence to that of the TSOs and the smurfs would be embarrassed.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 4:00 pm
  #54  
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Originally Posted by TSORon


Dogs are 70% effective when they are working. And they have serious limitations as to when they “can” work, under what conditions, and are far more expensive than you might suspect not only to use but to train, maintain, and procure. Dogs have their place in the system, but are not the “be-all and end-all” of explosives detection.
Well, I don't mean to cause any problems but it seems the scanners don't have a very good success rate either. They depend on the skills of the person in the viewing room. There have been stories of people sneaking guns past the scanners in testing done by the tsa themselves. Also, many passengers have false anomolies detected and need a pat-down afterward. Dogs are hard working animals that are loyal, bright, they don't complain, and they don't seem to be as mean as some (not all) tso's.

There is no such thing as 100% security anywhere in the world. Even if you stay home and do nothing, there could be a natural disaster and you could die.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 4:33 pm
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Originally Posted by average_passenger
Well, I don't mean to cause any problems but it seems the scanners don't have a very good success rate either. They depend on the skills of the person in the viewing room. There have been stories of people sneaking guns past the scanners in testing done by the tsa themselves. Also, many passengers have false anomolies detected and need a pat-down afterward. Dogs are hard working animals that are loyal, bright, they don't complain, and they don't seem to be as mean as some (not all) tso's.

There is no such thing as 100% security anywhere in the world. Even if you stay home and do nothing, there could be a natural disaster and you could die.
100% correct. There have been items missed. AIT is a new technology to the TSA as well as the passengers, and the learning curve is pretty steep. Once again we are being asked to identify anomalies on a varying platform (humans) using 2 dimensional black and white imagery, that is no-where near “High-Def”. I don’t work with the systems personally, but I have seen some of the training materials. And to add another dimension to the equation, TSO’s are not allowed to communicate to the searching officer what the item may be, only a generic area of the body that may contain it. The communication between the two officers is severely restricted, and monitored by supervisory and management level personnel.

AIT is not a perfect technology (much as I might like it to be), it can only give us indications that there is something that needs a closer look. And that’s all that dogs can do, give us indications that a closer look needs to be made. Humans are still going to have to do the looking, and that means folks with the same job I have no matter the technology telling us.

There is no perfect technology. Sorry, that is a pretty obvious fact. One other pretty obvious fact is that the AIT does not bite or poop on the floor. Each has its faults, just as each has its advantages. The TSA uses both technologies, each in its most appropriate place.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 5:29 pm
  #56  
 
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Why is this?

Originally Posted by TSORon
TSO’s are not allowed to communicate to the searching officer what the item may be, only a generic area of the body that may contain it.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 5:35 pm
  #57  
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Originally Posted by average_passenger
There have been stories of people sneaking guns past the scanners in testing done by the tsa themselves.
There are two reasons for this that add up:

1) The TSA lacks the skills to use their shiny new toys in an effective fashion. We've repeatedly heard from various TSA employees that they're simply unable to train their personnel to read the images on the scanner. I speculate whether this is because the TSA doesn't have anyone with those skills to train others, or because the majority of TSA employees are simply untrainable.

2) The scanner doesn't detect the threats that it was supposedly "necessary" to detect - underwear bombs and guns. A metal detector would have caught the gun every time in the 5x5 failure in DFW.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 7:11 pm
  #58  
 
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Since TSA employees are 30% or less effective when working and TSA equipment is 0% effective when working, the dogs win hands down.

70% effective! Wow. They're the best we've got.



The nation's problems solved.


I feel safer already.

Further, dogs are brilliant at discerning human character and intentions. They'll run rings around any BDO.

Maybe it's that canine perceptiveness the TSA finds so objectionable about dogs.
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 8:31 pm
  #59  
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Originally Posted by ElizabethConley
Since TSA employees are 30% or less effective when working and TSA equipment is 0% effective when working, the dogs win hands down.

70% effective! Wow. They're the best we've got.



The nation's problems solved.


I feel safer already.

Further, dogs are brilliant at discerning human character and intentions. They'll run rings around any BDO.

Maybe it's that canine perceptiveness the TSA finds so objectionable about dogs.
If dogs are brilliant at discerning human character how will TSA get any dogs to stay around TSA employees?
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Old Apr 16, 2011 | 8:56 pm
  #60  
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Originally Posted by ElizabethConley
Maybe it's that canine perceptiveness the TSA finds so objectionable about dogs.
Maybe it's the simple fact that dogs can tell time - my dogs were always waiting at the door, and would go to the door on time even if I was late - and TSA employees can't (as witnessed by the TSA statement that the Savannah train incident was the result of the VIPR team being unable to read a clock or a watch.)
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