I snitched on a guy - was this the right thing to do?
Mar 29, 2011 | 10:56 am
#76
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Programs: UA/CO(1K-PLT), AA(PLT), QR, EK, Marriott(PLT), Hilton(DMND)
Posts: 9,538
Canadian (well, not exclusive to Canada - it is originally from Australia) shoe care - several versions in liquid form. http://www.kiwicare.com/FR-CA/Products/Leather/
Mar 29, 2011 | 12:35 pm
#78
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Marriott or Hilton hot tub with a big drink <glub> Beverage: To-Go Bag DYKWIA:SSSS /rolleyes ☈ Date Night:Costco
Programs: Sea Shell Lounge Platinum, TSA Pre✓ Refusnik Diamond, PWP Gold, FT subset of the subset
Posts: 12,523
On 9/11 the PAX on UA 93 fought back, preventing the hijackers from reaching their intended target.
Most recent to date: NW 253 Underpants Bomber is dragged through the cabin with his pants around his ankles (NOT the outcome he was hoping for
) Several PAX suffer burns while subduing him.Binary liquid explosives on a commercial aircraft is a fantasy. If the was such a Magic Liquid (or liquid bio-weapon) just send enough Kippie Bags through the checkpoint until you have the needed amount.
Last edited by N965VJ; Mar 29, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Mar 29, 2011 | 1:00 pm
#79
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Programs: UA/CO(1K-PLT), AA(PLT), QR, EK, Marriott(PLT), Hilton(DMND)
Posts: 9,538
Most recent incident prior to 9/11: PAX breaks down the cockpit door of a WN flight in August 2000. He is restrained with such force that he eventually dies of his injuries. Several PAX suffer injuries while trying to subdue him.
On 9/11 the PAX fought back, preventing the hijackers from reaching their intended target.
Most recent to date: NW 253 Underpants Bomber is dragged through the cabin with his pants around his ankles (NOT the outcome he was hoping for) Several PAX suffer burns while subduing him.
On 9/11 the PAX fought back, preventing the hijackers from reaching their intended target.
Most recent to date: NW 253 Underpants Bomber is dragged through the cabin with his pants around his ankles (NOT the outcome he was hoping for
) Several PAX suffer burns while subduing him.I don't like people watching me like hawks when I get up to to the lavatory, but I know that if I were to start banging on the cockpit door or yelling something stupid about wanting to open the cockpit door, I'd have about twenty people all up my, I mean, in my face within ten seconds flat. You can't check for propensity to do stuff like that at any checkpoint, no matter how thorough you check people, and I don't think one wants to predict behaviour.
Passengers really are the last and most effective line of defence against morons, because they don't care that you walked through the checkpoint with shinola in your pocket, but they will spring into action if you are trying to do something idiotic that will hurt them. Even though the number of incidents have been miniscule, like under ten in ten years of millions of flights a year, each time someone has tried to light a shoe, it's the other passengers that have done what was necessary.
Mar 29, 2011 | 1:36 pm
#80
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Democratic People's Republic of the UK
Programs: Lifetime Gold, Global Entry, Hertz PC, and my wallet
Posts: 21,914
^
I don't like people watching me like hawks when I get up to to the lavatory, but I know that if I were to start banging on the cockpit door or yelling something stupid about wanting to open the cockpit door, I'd have about twenty people all up my, I mean, in my face within ten seconds flat. You can't check for propensity to do stuff like that at any checkpoint, no matter how thorough you check people, and I don't think one wants to predict behaviour.
Passengers really are the last and most effective line of defence against morons, because they don't care that you walked through the checkpoint with shinola in your pocket, but they will spring into action if you are trying to do something idiotic that will hurt them. Even though the number of incidents have been miniscule, like under ten in ten years of millions of flights a year, each time someone has tried to light a shoe, it's the other passengers that have done what was necessary.
I don't like people watching me like hawks when I get up to to the lavatory, but I know that if I were to start banging on the cockpit door or yelling something stupid about wanting to open the cockpit door, I'd have about twenty people all up my, I mean, in my face within ten seconds flat. You can't check for propensity to do stuff like that at any checkpoint, no matter how thorough you check people, and I don't think one wants to predict behaviour.
Passengers really are the last and most effective line of defence against morons, because they don't care that you walked through the checkpoint with shinola in your pocket, but they will spring into action if you are trying to do something idiotic that will hurt them. Even though the number of incidents have been miniscule, like under ten in ten years of millions of flights a year, each time someone has tried to light a shoe, it's the other passengers that have done what was necessary.
Mar 29, 2011 | 2:12 pm
#81
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,004
<<< TSA Artful Concealer Silver
Most recent incident prior to 9/11: PAX breaks down the cockpit door of a WN flight in August 2000. He is restrained with such force that he eventually dies of his injuries. Several PAX suffer injuries while trying to subdue him.
On 9/11 the PAX on UA 93 fought back, preventing the hijackers from reaching their intended target.
Most recent to date: NW 253 Underpants Bomber is dragged through the cabin with his pants around his ankles (NOT the outcome he was hoping for) Several PAX suffer burns while subduing him.
Most recent incident prior to 9/11: PAX breaks down the cockpit door of a WN flight in August 2000. He is restrained with such force that he eventually dies of his injuries. Several PAX suffer injuries while trying to subdue him.
On 9/11 the PAX on UA 93 fought back, preventing the hijackers from reaching their intended target.
Most recent to date: NW 253 Underpants Bomber is dragged through the cabin with his pants around his ankles (NOT the outcome he was hoping for
) Several PAX suffer burns while subduing him.
Mar 29, 2011 | 7:20 pm
#82
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle
Programs: AA since 1998, 1.96 M miles
Posts: 214
Liquid bombs require a much larger volume of liquid, and mixing them in an airplane is not feasible because the mixture releases noxious fumes which tend to kill the mixer unless they have a mask AND the mixture tends to burst into flames prematurely unless the proportions and mixing technique are perfect. In other words, the whole idea of terrorists mixing liquids in an airplane in order to bring it down is absurd.
Finally, you say he was trying to conceal his bottle, maybe he was just sleepy and confused, or drunk, or thinking about other things and not really focusing on what would be the best way to send his little bottle through the security aparatus.
Last edited by KurtD; Mar 29, 2011 at 7:26 pm
Mar 29, 2011 | 7:30 pm
#83
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle
Programs: AA since 1998, 1.96 M miles
Posts: 214
You're sure? I call bull____ Please bring evidence to support your assertions. The cost of false accusations is extremely high. Some of us have suffered the consequences of false accusations and authorities taking action 'just to be safe' even when there's not enough evidence to arrest much less convict someone.
Mar 29, 2011 | 8:02 pm
#84
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Programs: UA/CO(1K-PLT), AA(PLT), QR, EK, Marriott(PLT), Hilton(DMND)
Posts: 9,538
Mar 29, 2011 | 8:45 pm
#85
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 171
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the fact that if we weren't in an us-versus-them war against the peeping tom molesters in the TSA, then we'd all probably be the types of people who would turn in someone flouting the rules. The only reason I vote for Mind Your Own Business is that the TSA is distinctly, violently, sexual-assaultingly, my worst enemy.
This is just one in a veritable catalogue of reasons that the TSA's bullying and sexual humiliation make us far less safe than we were. I'm five hundred times more terrified of the TSA than I am of any boogeyman getting on my airplane. That's why I would never tattle to the TSA on anyone, because I know that they exist to take naked photos of me and fondle my vagina. I would never turn someone in to be assaulted like that; it would make me an accessory to these vile crimes. If the TSA respected my sexual boundaries, then maybe I'd be able to inform them about someone sneaking an item past their checkpoint. The TSA's depraved and disgusting tactics are a security risk in more ways than one.
This is just one in a veritable catalogue of reasons that the TSA's bullying and sexual humiliation make us far less safe than we were. I'm five hundred times more terrified of the TSA than I am of any boogeyman getting on my airplane. That's why I would never tattle to the TSA on anyone, because I know that they exist to take naked photos of me and fondle my vagina. I would never turn someone in to be assaulted like that; it would make me an accessory to these vile crimes. If the TSA respected my sexual boundaries, then maybe I'd be able to inform them about someone sneaking an item past their checkpoint. The TSA's depraved and disgusting tactics are a security risk in more ways than one.
Mar 29, 2011 | 9:58 pm
#86
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 47,225
....What I was addressing was the suspect behavior of the pax hiding the bottle. By concealing it, he was preventing it from being examined by any means at all. You are willing to assume that someone who does something which is clearly a violation of security regulations has a benign motivation such as protecting his own property which he wishes to take on board the aircraft even though said property may violate airline or security rules. Maybe the guy has a shiny shoe fetish and maybe it really was just an oversized bottle of shoe polish. But, it could just as easily be something else not so harmless that might have been detected by examination. Shoe polish is usually dark colored, what if the contents of the bottle weren't the right color and that could have been detected by visual examination? I'm in the medical field and have been reading lately about some of the possible biological weapons; using one of those in a shoe polish sized bottle, you could easily kill off most of the pax on a large plane.
Just because many people on FT find it acceptable to circumvent security for their own personal reasons doesn't mean that those who consider such behavior to be dangerous to the general welfare are paranoid. Ad hominem attacks are usually used by those who know that their own argument is either weak or irrelevant, like making an analogy between having a heart attack and observing someone trying to smuggle something illicit through security.
Just because many people on FT find it acceptable to circumvent security for their own personal reasons doesn't mean that those who consider such behavior to be dangerous to the general welfare are paranoid. Ad hominem attacks are usually used by those who know that their own argument is either weak or irrelevant, like making an analogy between having a heart attack and observing someone trying to smuggle something illicit through security.
Hopefully you're not like some of our scientifically-challenged screeners who think you can detect a chemical explosive by running a container through an x-ray machine.
Biological weapons? You think the TSA has even a snowflake's chance in hell of finding a biological weapon? Guess what - when the time comes for terrorists to try that route, the delivery system won't be a bottle in someone's pocket - it will be a passenger spreading the contagion on a flight, and those passengers spreading it further...and so on and so on.
I regularly sneak small bottles through the checkpoint hidden in my pocket and within my bag - for years I've been a professional-grade 'artful concealer' and I'm proud of it.
Mar 29, 2011 | 10:34 pm
#87
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Programs: UA/CO(1K-PLT), AA(PLT), QR, EK, Marriott(PLT), Hilton(DMND)
Posts: 9,538
You're missing one point - how does running a liquid or gel through an x-ray identify the chemical composition of the contents?
Hopefully you're not like some of our scientifically-challenged screeners who think you can detect a chemical explosive by running a container through an x-ray machine.
Biological weapons? You think the TSA has even a snowflake's chance in hell of finding a biological weapon? Guess what - when the time comes for terrorists to try that route, the delivery system won't be a bottle in someone's pocket - it will be a passenger spreading the contagion on a flight, and those passengers spreading it further...and so on and so on.
I regularly sneak small bottles through the checkpoint hidden in my pocket and within my bag - for years I've been a professional-grade 'artful concealer' and I'm proud of it.
Hopefully you're not like some of our scientifically-challenged screeners who think you can detect a chemical explosive by running a container through an x-ray machine.
Biological weapons? You think the TSA has even a snowflake's chance in hell of finding a biological weapon? Guess what - when the time comes for terrorists to try that route, the delivery system won't be a bottle in someone's pocket - it will be a passenger spreading the contagion on a flight, and those passengers spreading it further...and so on and so on.
I regularly sneak small bottles through the checkpoint hidden in my pocket and within my bag - for years I've been a professional-grade 'artful concealer' and I'm proud of it.
Mar 30, 2011 | 4:55 am
#88
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: IL
Programs: A3 Gold, UA Silver, DL Silver, Hertz PC, Avis Pref+
Posts: 1,141
So, are you an explosives expert ?
Because they have demonstrated the exact opposite of what you claim.
Because they have demonstrated the exact opposite of what you claim.
Liquid bombs require a much larger volume of liquid, and mixing them in an airplane is not feasible because the mixture releases noxious fumes which tend to kill the mixer unless they have a mask AND the mixture tends to burst into flames prematurely unless the proportions and mixing technique are perfect. In other words, the whole idea of terrorists mixing liquids in an airplane in order to bring it down is absurd..
Mar 30, 2011 | 5:06 am
#90
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: IL
Programs: A3 Gold, UA Silver, DL Silver, Hertz PC, Avis Pref+
Posts: 1,141
Your guess is an opinion, hardly educated or intelligent - and seems to be based on your selective recall of events.
Road accidents ? If you saw knew your bus driver had had a couple of beers before boarding - would you snitch or not ? after all, chances are nothing would happen, right ?
Road accidents ? If you saw knew your bus driver had had a couple of beers before boarding - would you snitch or not ? after all, chances are nothing would happen, right ?
Nope.
Nope.
Of course it's not proof, but it's a reasonable conclusion to draw based on what we do know. May I ask what proof do you have of your assertion below...
I base my educated and intellectual guess on the fact that every minor and insignificant security alert is presented as a win in this broad war of terror you are fighting. To date, after ten years of this, I can think of hundreds of formal complaints of unnecessary security alerts resulting from dumbasses seeing someone they think is suspicious that I have been privy to, and possibly thousands discussed in various live and online forums or listed on the websites of various civil rights groups. Add to this my own experiences and those of others I know of who are who have been removed from aircraft but not filed complaints with a civil rights group and I think it becomes fairly obvious that the vast majority of these alerts that arise from the logic challenged segment of the population are false alarms.
On the rare occasion that someone has seen something suspicious and it has actually turned out to be a good catch, the media has been all over it. However, I recall no more than a handful of these and most of those turned out to be nonsense too, once analysed by LE or the courts.
That is your opinion - one I disagree with vehemently.
Aha. Statistics!
Presumably, you are perfectly happy with the number of people killed in road accidents every year. How does that compare with the type of air disaster you appear to be concerned about?
Nope.
Of course it's not proof, but it's a reasonable conclusion to draw based on what we do know. May I ask what proof do you have of your assertion below...
I base my educated and intellectual guess on the fact that every minor and insignificant security alert is presented as a win in this broad war of terror you are fighting. To date, after ten years of this, I can think of hundreds of formal complaints of unnecessary security alerts resulting from dumbasses seeing someone they think is suspicious that I have been privy to, and possibly thousands discussed in various live and online forums or listed on the websites of various civil rights groups. Add to this my own experiences and those of others I know of who are who have been removed from aircraft but not filed complaints with a civil rights group and I think it becomes fairly obvious that the vast majority of these alerts that arise from the logic challenged segment of the population are false alarms.
On the rare occasion that someone has seen something suspicious and it has actually turned out to be a good catch, the media has been all over it. However, I recall no more than a handful of these and most of those turned out to be nonsense too, once analysed by LE or the courts.
That is your opinion - one I disagree with vehemently.
Aha. Statistics!
Presumably, you are perfectly happy with the number of people killed in road accidents every year. How does that compare with the type of air disaster you appear to be concerned about?