Whole Body Scanners Opt Out Stories [merged]
Feb 14, 2016, 8:58 pm
#4396
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,129
Feb 14, 2016, 9:34 pm
#4397
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
OK, playing devil's advocate I guess. What's to stop someone from smuggling through some non permitted item, illegal drugs by stuffing it into their underwear? I recognize how unpleasant the groin grope is, but either their machine finds an anomaly, or the pax opts out and needs to be checked in some way. I am not saying they should grope people, just asking how we do security successfully? For everyone complaining about TSA and their machines, what is the alternative? Go back to metal detectors everywhere?
Feb 14, 2016, 9:37 pm
#4398
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
Suggesting that I don't understand the Constitution because I made the mistake of referring to drugs is rather rude. I did mention drugs because I've been reading about it, but yes not relevant to TSA. I did say non permitted items to include simple things like liquids and such. If you aren't touching people or scanning people, then inappropriate items might get through if people get creative. Defn: inappropriate, not currently permitted by TSA rules.
Feb 15, 2016, 8:19 am
#4399
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
That's all. No detention, no interrogation, no investigation, and certainly no random fishing expeditions for drugs, cash, bad checks, or kiddie porn. I am not a cop - nor is a TSO. I am not empowered to investigate crimes, interrogate suspects, or detain anyone - nor is a TSO.
TSOs are empowered to conduct a search which is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.*
* United States vs Davis, June 1973
Feb 15, 2016, 10:35 am
#4400
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: RDU
Posts: 5,242
Well, according to the TSOs who have posted here, the procedure if a TSO notices a substance that they believe to be an illegal drug, they are required to call the local police and report what they saw. I happen to agree with that policy; were I, as a private citizen, to see a suitcase full of white powder, I would also call the police and report it. Though, to be honest, I have never actually seen real cocaine or heroin in person, so my only frame of reference is what I see in movies or TV shows. I'd only be reacting to the "bag of white power", which could just as easily be rice flour, confectioner's sugar, or some kind of jock itch medication. As would a TSO. So, we - either I or a TSO - call the police. The police alone have the authority and expertise to sort out the jock itch powder from actual smack.
That's all. No detention, no interrogation, no investigation, and certainly no random fishing expeditions for drugs, cash, bad checks, or kiddie porn. I am not a cop - nor is a TSO. I am not empowered to investigate crimes, interrogate suspects, or detain anyone - nor is a TSO.
TSOs are empowered to conduct a search which is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.*
* United States vs Davis, June 1973
That's all. No detention, no interrogation, no investigation, and certainly no random fishing expeditions for drugs, cash, bad checks, or kiddie porn. I am not a cop - nor is a TSO. I am not empowered to investigate crimes, interrogate suspects, or detain anyone - nor is a TSO.
TSOs are empowered to conduct a search which is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.*
* United States vs Davis, June 1973
Feb 15, 2016, 12:21 pm
#4401
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Programs: AA EXP...couple hotels and cars too
Posts: 4,548
Well, according to the TSOs who have posted here, the procedure if a TSO notices a substance that they believe to be an illegal drug, they are required to call the local police and report what they saw. I happen to agree with that policy; were I, as a private citizen, to see a suitcase full of white powder, I would also call the police and report it. Though, to be honest, I have never actually seen real cocaine or heroin in person, so my only frame of reference is what I see in movies or TV shows. I'd only be reacting to the "bag of white power", which could just as easily be rice flour, confectioner's sugar, or some kind of jock itch medication. As would a TSO. So, we - either I or a TSO - call the police. The police alone have the authority and expertise to sort out the jock itch powder from actual smack.
That's all. No detention, no interrogation, no investigation, and certainly no random fishing expeditions for drugs, cash, bad checks, or kiddie porn. I am not a cop - nor is a TSO. I am not empowered to investigate crimes, interrogate suspects, or detain anyone - nor is a TSO.
TSOs are empowered to conduct a search which is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.*
* United States vs Davis, June 1973
That's all. No detention, no interrogation, no investigation, and certainly no random fishing expeditions for drugs, cash, bad checks, or kiddie porn. I am not a cop - nor is a TSO. I am not empowered to investigate crimes, interrogate suspects, or detain anyone - nor is a TSO.
TSOs are empowered to conduct a search which is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.*
* United States vs Davis, June 1973
So that's policy.
Practically speaking TSO is very proud of their part in busting folks for drugs. "if someone has illegal drugs, that in and of itself is a security risk and we have the right to dig further"
When (and if) asked why I opt out of the scanner, I will often say "If I want to carry a bag of weed in my crotch, thats none of your business". Mid 50s businessman, and look the part. I love to see the reactions. (and no, I dont have drugs on me.)
Mar 30, 2016, 3:49 pm
#4403
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Delta Diamond Medallion 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, National Car Executive Elite
Posts: 550
Training won't help... item 99,999 entered into evidence
Came through ATL international TSA checkpoint today in E concourse for connecting passengers. Opted out of the MMW. Was told to wait on the side for a male TSO who was sitting right alongside the line; was told he'd handle my opt-out.
(Interesting that there was a male and female TSO -- two TSOs, not both sexes in one -- just sitting alongside the line, apparently waiting for opt-outs. Very efficient use of personnel, though I had a very short wait for the "handling" to start.)
Female TSO sitting next to the male TSO asks me if I have everything out of my pockets and my belt removed. I replied that I'm all set. Then the male TSO, sitting right next to her, asks me the same questions. I pointed out that I'd just answered his colleague's same questions, and he asks me if he heard me tell her my answers. I said, I have no idea if you heard me, but you were sitting right next to her when I answered, so I assume you did. He says, no, he did not hear my answers and demanded I answer them again. I told him I was ready to go, but he didn't like that answer. So I told him, no, my pockets are not empty because there is air in them. That got me through the "magic gate."
He then walks me to the side of the checkpoint area, about 40 feet from the line where my bags were exiting the X-ray machine. He tells me to stand there. I asked him to bring my bags to where I was. He refused, said I could see them from where I was. I again asked him to bring them to where I was; again he refused, telling me I could tell him if someone started to go through my bags while I was being "searched."
I then asked for a supervisor. Initially, he said no, then he did call one. The supervisor came over and the TSO immediately told him I was not cooperating. I told the supervisor that I wanted my bags to be removed from the conveyor belt and brought to where I was. Supervisor turned to the TSO and said, do it.
TSO instead walks me to a patdown area just beyond the belt where my bags were, and tells me to stand there for the patdown. I refused again, saying I wanted my bags taken off the belt and put where we were standing. Again, the TSO refused; we did this two more times. I then call loudly for the supervisor, who came over and told the TSO to take my bags off the belt and move them to the table where we were. Finally, the TSO followed "directions."
The patdown was one of the roughest I've had in months -- very physical and hard-pressing. He also chopped me in the "resistance" (I made a loud protestation when he did this and said, "You just pushed my genitals into my body!" He ignored me and did it again; and I again protested.
When we were done, the supervisor pulled the TSO aside and spent five minutes talking with him. It was obvious the TSO was trying to explain his behavior, but the supervisor didn't seem to be buying his explanation. After they parted ways, I called the supervisor over to ask why I had to ask for him just to get my bags taken off the belt. He told me that I should not have to do that; in fact, that he had told the TSO that, when a passenger asks for the bags to be moved, then the TSO is supposed to move them; that there is no problem with that procedure and he had discussed that with the TSO. I also complained about the genital chops to him, and he apologized.
At least one silver lining out of this wonderful experience for which I paid an admittance fee (TSA security fee) was the supervisor's rational and correct answers to the situation. However, I doubt very much that the TSO will change his ways.
Training apparently is wasted on the super-intelligent TSOs.
(Interesting that there was a male and female TSO -- two TSOs, not both sexes in one -- just sitting alongside the line, apparently waiting for opt-outs. Very efficient use of personnel, though I had a very short wait for the "handling" to start.)
Female TSO sitting next to the male TSO asks me if I have everything out of my pockets and my belt removed. I replied that I'm all set. Then the male TSO, sitting right next to her, asks me the same questions. I pointed out that I'd just answered his colleague's same questions, and he asks me if he heard me tell her my answers. I said, I have no idea if you heard me, but you were sitting right next to her when I answered, so I assume you did. He says, no, he did not hear my answers and demanded I answer them again. I told him I was ready to go, but he didn't like that answer. So I told him, no, my pockets are not empty because there is air in them. That got me through the "magic gate."
He then walks me to the side of the checkpoint area, about 40 feet from the line where my bags were exiting the X-ray machine. He tells me to stand there. I asked him to bring my bags to where I was. He refused, said I could see them from where I was. I again asked him to bring them to where I was; again he refused, telling me I could tell him if someone started to go through my bags while I was being "searched."
I then asked for a supervisor. Initially, he said no, then he did call one. The supervisor came over and the TSO immediately told him I was not cooperating. I told the supervisor that I wanted my bags to be removed from the conveyor belt and brought to where I was. Supervisor turned to the TSO and said, do it.
TSO instead walks me to a patdown area just beyond the belt where my bags were, and tells me to stand there for the patdown. I refused again, saying I wanted my bags taken off the belt and put where we were standing. Again, the TSO refused; we did this two more times. I then call loudly for the supervisor, who came over and told the TSO to take my bags off the belt and move them to the table where we were. Finally, the TSO followed "directions."
The patdown was one of the roughest I've had in months -- very physical and hard-pressing. He also chopped me in the "resistance" (I made a loud protestation when he did this and said, "You just pushed my genitals into my body!" He ignored me and did it again; and I again protested.
When we were done, the supervisor pulled the TSO aside and spent five minutes talking with him. It was obvious the TSO was trying to explain his behavior, but the supervisor didn't seem to be buying his explanation. After they parted ways, I called the supervisor over to ask why I had to ask for him just to get my bags taken off the belt. He told me that I should not have to do that; in fact, that he had told the TSO that, when a passenger asks for the bags to be moved, then the TSO is supposed to move them; that there is no problem with that procedure and he had discussed that with the TSO. I also complained about the genital chops to him, and he apologized.
At least one silver lining out of this wonderful experience for which I paid an admittance fee (TSA security fee) was the supervisor's rational and correct answers to the situation. However, I doubt very much that the TSO will change his ways.
Training apparently is wasted on the super-intelligent TSOs.
Mar 30, 2016, 4:18 pm
#4404
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Came through ATL international TSA checkpoint today in E concourse for connecting passengers. Opted out of the MMW. Was told to wait on the side for a male TSO who was sitting right alongside the line; was told he'd handle my opt-out.
(Interesting that there was a male and female TSO -- two TSOs, not both sexes in one -- just sitting alongside the line, apparently waiting for opt-outs. Very efficient use of personnel, though I had a very short wait for the "handling" to start.)
Female TSO sitting next to the male TSO asks me if I have everything out of my pockets and my belt removed. I replied that I'm all set. Then the male TSO, sitting right next to her, asks me the same questions. I pointed out that I'd just answered his colleague's same questions, and he asks me if he heard me tell her my answers. I said, I have no idea if you heard me, but you were sitting right next to her when I answered, so I assume you did. He says, no, he did not hear my answers and demanded I answer them again. I told him I was ready to go, but he didn't like that answer. So I told him, no, my pockets are not empty because there is air in them. That got me through the "magic gate."
He then walks me to the side of the checkpoint area, about 40 feet from the line where my bags were exiting the X-ray machine. He tells me to stand there. I asked him to bring my bags to where I was. He refused, said I could see them from where I was. I again asked him to bring them to where I was; again he refused, telling me I could tell him if someone started to go through my bags while I was being "searched."
I then asked for a supervisor. Initially, he said no, then he did call one. The supervisor came over and the TSO immediately told him I was not cooperating. I told the supervisor that I wanted my bags to be removed from the conveyor belt and brought to where I was. Supervisor turned to the TSO and said, do it.
TSO instead walks me to a patdown area just beyond the belt where my bags were, and tells me to stand there for the patdown. I refused again, saying I wanted my bags taken off the belt and put where we were standing. Again, the TSO refused; we did this two more times. I then call loudly for the supervisor, who came over and told the TSO to take my bags off the belt and move them to the table where we were. Finally, the TSO followed "directions."
The patdown was one of the roughest I've had in months -- very physical and hard-pressing. He also chopped me in the "resistance" (I made a loud protestation when he did this and said, "You just pushed my genitals into my body!" He ignored me and did it again; and I again protested.
When we were done, the supervisor pulled the TSO aside and spent five minutes talking with him. It was obvious the TSO was trying to explain his behavior, but the supervisor didn't seem to be buying his explanation. After they parted ways, I called the supervisor over to ask why I had to ask for him just to get my bags taken off the belt. He told me that I should not have to do that; in fact, that he had told the TSO that, when a passenger asks for the bags to be moved, then the TSO is supposed to move them; that there is no problem with that procedure and he had discussed that with the TSO. I also complained about the genital chops to him, and he apologized.
At least one silver lining out of this wonderful experience for which I paid an admittance fee (TSA security fee) was the supervisor's rational and correct answers to the situation. However, I doubt very much that the TSO will change his ways.
Training apparently is wasted on the super-intelligent TSOs.
(Interesting that there was a male and female TSO -- two TSOs, not both sexes in one -- just sitting alongside the line, apparently waiting for opt-outs. Very efficient use of personnel, though I had a very short wait for the "handling" to start.)
Female TSO sitting next to the male TSO asks me if I have everything out of my pockets and my belt removed. I replied that I'm all set. Then the male TSO, sitting right next to her, asks me the same questions. I pointed out that I'd just answered his colleague's same questions, and he asks me if he heard me tell her my answers. I said, I have no idea if you heard me, but you were sitting right next to her when I answered, so I assume you did. He says, no, he did not hear my answers and demanded I answer them again. I told him I was ready to go, but he didn't like that answer. So I told him, no, my pockets are not empty because there is air in them. That got me through the "magic gate."
He then walks me to the side of the checkpoint area, about 40 feet from the line where my bags were exiting the X-ray machine. He tells me to stand there. I asked him to bring my bags to where I was. He refused, said I could see them from where I was. I again asked him to bring them to where I was; again he refused, telling me I could tell him if someone started to go through my bags while I was being "searched."
I then asked for a supervisor. Initially, he said no, then he did call one. The supervisor came over and the TSO immediately told him I was not cooperating. I told the supervisor that I wanted my bags to be removed from the conveyor belt and brought to where I was. Supervisor turned to the TSO and said, do it.
TSO instead walks me to a patdown area just beyond the belt where my bags were, and tells me to stand there for the patdown. I refused again, saying I wanted my bags taken off the belt and put where we were standing. Again, the TSO refused; we did this two more times. I then call loudly for the supervisor, who came over and told the TSO to take my bags off the belt and move them to the table where we were. Finally, the TSO followed "directions."
The patdown was one of the roughest I've had in months -- very physical and hard-pressing. He also chopped me in the "resistance" (I made a loud protestation when he did this and said, "You just pushed my genitals into my body!" He ignored me and did it again; and I again protested.
When we were done, the supervisor pulled the TSO aside and spent five minutes talking with him. It was obvious the TSO was trying to explain his behavior, but the supervisor didn't seem to be buying his explanation. After they parted ways, I called the supervisor over to ask why I had to ask for him just to get my bags taken off the belt. He told me that I should not have to do that; in fact, that he had told the TSO that, when a passenger asks for the bags to be moved, then the TSO is supposed to move them; that there is no problem with that procedure and he had discussed that with the TSO. I also complained about the genital chops to him, and he apologized.
At least one silver lining out of this wonderful experience for which I paid an admittance fee (TSA security fee) was the supervisor's rational and correct answers to the situation. However, I doubt very much that the TSO will change his ways.
Training apparently is wasted on the super-intelligent TSOs.
Mar 30, 2016, 4:37 pm
#4405
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: RDU
Posts: 5,242
KDS, good post but I don't think it's fair to tar all TSO with the same brush. You found one of the bad ones but I don't think it's fair to assume they're all like that. Supervisor was helpful and friendly. Submit a complaint and see what happens.
Mar 30, 2016, 4:41 pm
#4406
Join Date: May 2011
Programs: Delta Diamond Medallion 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, National Car Executive Elite
Posts: 550
Please file a complaint here: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/hotline/hotline.php
Mar 30, 2016, 5:02 pm
#4407
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Mar 31, 2016, 5:14 am
#4408
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Posts: 239
The TSA has been tarring all passengers with the same brush, despite never having found a single bad one in nearly 15 years. Talk about unfair.
Apr 28, 2016, 2:58 pm
#4409
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: DL FO
Posts: 668
Have precheck. Got the "random" beep at the metal detector at SFO T1 this week. Told to go through the nude-o-scope. I told them I chose not to fly that day. They returned my carryons, I walked over to T2, used the precheck line there, then walked back airside to T1 (so glad they built that connector). Real foolproof system they've got.
