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Chase survey regarding possible changes when combining points.
http://www.doctorofcredit.com/chase-...l-redemptions/
"They wanted to know how users would feel about the following options: “When you combine the Ultimate Rewards points on eligible Chase Cards they would retain their original redemption value – that is, when transferred the points would retain the redemption value of the product they were initially earned on. For example you would not earn a travel redemption bonus if your transfer from a no fee card to a Fee card.” “You can only combine Ultimate Reward points between no-annual fee cards or between annual fee cards. You cannot combine Ultimate Rewards points between a no-annual fee card and an annual fee card.” “You can combine Ultimate Rewards points on eligible Chase cards at a 3:2 conversion ratio. For example if you would like to transfer 15,000 points from your Freedom Unlimited card to your Sapphire Reserve account, your Sapphire Reserve would be credited with 10,000 points (a 3:2 ratio). The transferred points would be granted the redemption value and options of the account to which they are transferred into.” All three of these options are terrible and significantly devalue the current value you can get from the Chase Freedom Unlimited (1.5x Chase UR on all purchases) and the Chase Freedom (5x Chase UR on rotating categories). If they made these changes I assume they would also affect your ability to transfer the points to Chase’s travel partners as well. Obviously this is just a preliminary survey to see how customers would feel about these changes, but it isn’t good to see Chase even considering these types of negative changes." |
That would be horrible!! I would probably stop using my freedom cards if that happens.
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I would cancel my Chase cards if this happens.
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Originally Posted by mhdena
(Post 28565522)
Chase must have lost a boatload of money on the CSR giveaway. And the renewals are not keeping pace.
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Originally Posted by mhdena
(Post 28565522)
Obviously this is just a preliminary survey to see how customers would feel about these changes...
"Would you like it if we made your points less valuable and threw restrictions into the program?" |
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
(Post 28565889)
Why would they even ask such a stupid group of questions?
Their competitors do not allow cash back rewards to be combined with other types of rewards. |
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
(Post 28565889)
Why would they even ask such a stupid group of questions?
Even you may believe that Chase is stupid for doing this, the purpose of the survey is to test the water and see how customers react. |
Is there any reason not to combine all points onto CSR? Is there some reason having a high point balance in one account would draw attention? I don't think so, but just asking.
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Are they sending your survey to Random people or to everyone? I haven't received it yet. I think the majority of card holders just cash out their points. I guess we are in the minor group who use points efficiently. Other banks don't allow cash cards points combine with regular reward cards. For example, you can't combine BofA cash rewards points with BofA travel card. Maybe chase wants to try to do the same.
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If Chase does this, an additional potential problem may exist for customers: If you merge, then later redeem for non-travel, and Chase programs the algorithm to take the 'more valuable' points first, it'll be a worse devaluation than on the face of it.
Possible example (conjecture): CSR 125K UR points Freedom 20K ; starting balances before merge If they are tweaking the plan around profitability, deductions done this way would be more profitable to Chase than leaving a customer with CSR 125K + 0K; Freedom 0K.CSR 125K+20K Freedom 0K ; account holder merges all pts to CSR Redemption -20K # non-travel, could have used 'junior' UR points. New balances with 'best points taken first' CSR 105K+20K ; 105K 'better' points, 'junior' points balance unchanged. AX converts points to MRF if you upgrade to the 'senior' charge cards. Chase loses the competitive advantage over AX here. If the CSR with the 100K offer took market from AXP Platinum, Chase would feel they are in a safe position for a benefits downgrade. |
So I stumbled upon this thread through a Google search. And what prompted me to search about the chase customer panel was due to a recent Reddit post that says there may be potential changes with how UR points are transferred.
https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/6nibwt/chase_considering_change_to_how_ur_points_are/?st=J56SBYCX&sh=a5f1ba6d Everyone should sign up for that customer survey. We may have a say in how our points are handled. |
Originally Posted by mia
(Post 28565923)
Freedom, Freedom Unlimited and INK Cash are marketed as cash-back cards, but actually earn UR points. Many cardholders would not notice or care if the ability to combine points was removed or changed because they redeem the points as cash at $0.01. Survey helps Chase gauge how many would care.
Their competitors do not allow cash back rewards to be combined with other types of rewards. |
Originally Posted by mia
(Post 28565878)
:confused: Reserve is not yet a year old. There have been no renewals.
They see the future in fewer renewals coming percentage wise, similarly to why Amex reduced the Business Platinum redemption from 50% to 35%. |
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 28565925)
When a survey like this comes out, it means that Chase is serious about doing that.
Even you may believe that Chase is stupid for doing this, the purpose of the survey is to test the water and see how customers react. It is a Test Balloon to figure WHICH of the options offer has the least objection although I imagine ALL 3 options would receive objections as they are all very bad propositions. There is no other way to describe it other than this is to prepare for a devaluation of the program. What is astonishing is, the CSR is not even a year old and we have seen 50% bonus cut, now the potential devaluation while not to CSR per se but to the whole UR ecosystem. Citi did not devalue Prestige until 3 years after its revamping of the TYP program, and it gave a full year before the devaluation happened. |
Originally Posted by mhdena
(Post 28566966)
Chase admitted they lost $300 million with the CSR.
They see the future in fewer renewals coming percentage wise, similarly to why Amex reduced the Business Platinum redemption from 50% to 35%. AMEX raised the AF to $550. Both trying to stem the bleeding. However AMEX still wins in the depts of customer service primarily in how to handling claims of all covered benefits. - purchase protection, trip interruption, Med Evac which does not even need to use the AMEX Plat card to pay the initial travel, rental car coverage, and just the general disputes - far better than how Chase handles it as Chase outsources the functions completely while AMEX keeps at least the administration in house afaik last time we used such benefits. Chase should stay with its own mid market level instead of trying to break in the high end cards market. The decision to incur huge acquisition cost has proved to be a costly mistake so far and it could not wait to make remedy. Some analysts estimate that it would take Chase 5 to 6 years to recoup that acquisition cost. A very large percentage of the new customers acquired probably would not renew anyway whether it devalue the UR program or not. Now with the inevitable devaluation of UR program it just adds MORE attrition to the CSR card, as well as the Freedom and Freedom Unlimited card because now a straight 2% cash rebate card looks a whole lot better. Even for the 1.5% CapOne QuickSilver due to it has no Forex Fee and CapOne does not add any Visa network fee to the transaction unlike with all Chase so-called 0 Forex fee cards actually still incur 1% Visa Network fee built in the exchange rates. |
Originally Posted by mia
(Post 28565878)
:confused: Reserve is not yet a year old. There have been no renewals.
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The moment I read about this I IMMEDIATELY moved all my points from the Freedom to the CSP. I ain't procrastinating. I will do this monthly from now on.
I also predict that Chase will lose a lot of customers to AMEX if this trial balloon is actually implemented. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 28567598)
What is astonishing is, the CSR is not even a year old and we have seen 50% bonus cut, now the potential devaluation while not to CSR per se but to the whole UR ecosystem.
2. I will not say it is a devaluation, but instead creating a sub-system within the UR.
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 28567598)
Citi did not devalue Prestige until 3 years after its revamping of the TYP program, and it gave a full year before the devaluation happened.
Originally Posted by BOSTravels
(Post 28567697)
I also predict that Chase will lose a lot of customers to AMEX if this trial balloon is actually implemented.
The proposed change, if implemented, focuses on non-AF UR cards like Freedom or FU. It does not necessarily affect AF UR cards like CSP or CSR. Also - unlike Citi, which has reduced bonus categories reward earning for similar cards to almost non-existence, Freedom and FU are still earning as advertised (for now). This changes will definitely slow down the number of new issuance. But it is not enough to trigger an escape. Don't forget - as a matter of fact, Citi is the one losing, not Chase. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 28567617)
However AMEX still wins in the depts of customer service primarily in how to handling claims of all covered benefits. - purchase protection, trip interruption, Med Evac which does not even need to use the AMEX Plat card to pay the initial travel, rental car coverage, and just the general disputes - far better than how Chase handles it as Chase outsources the functions completely while AMEX keeps at least the administration in house afaik last time we used such benefits.
For us, it's a reason they're keeper cards rather than churn and burn. |
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 28567816)
Not really.
The proposed change, if implemented, focuses on non-AF UR cards like Freedom or FU. It does not necessarily affect AF UR cards like CSP or CSR. In fact, if FU becomes a simpleton 1.5% cash back card you might as well get a simpleton 2% cash back card from e.g. Citi or Cap1. |
Originally Posted by BOSTravels
(Post 28567973)
If FU loses the ability to transfer to CSR/CSP and therefore loses transfer to e.g. airlines, AMEX EveryDay will be superior to FU.
In fact, if FU becomes a simpleton 1.5% cash back card you might as well get a simpleton 2% cash back card from e.g. Citi or Cap1. |
Am I missing something here? The first option seems to read to only impact the 50% travel credit bonus and not 1:1 partners. So spending the full $1500 in a quarter gets you 7500 points but that would be worth $75 for travel credit not $112.50 with CSR however those same 7500 UR would transfer to United for 7500 miles?
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
(Post 28565889)
Why would they even ask such a stupid group of questions?
"Would you like it if we made your points less valuable and threw restrictions into the program?" Exactly. What would be the point? This is so silly for them to even float such an idea. The 5/24 rule is dumb enough, and now this? |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 28567967)
Right. AMEX has come thru for us every time when we need to file a dispute or a claim.
Chase on the other hand has an agonizing long process and at the end what it promised still did not come thru on the card. AMEX is both the processor and the network so it has an advantage in dispute and rewards situations. Chase should stay with its own mid market level instead of trying to break in the high end cards market. The decision to incur huge acquisition cost has proved to be a costly mistake so far and it could not wait to make remedy. If you want "Chase" to get rid of high end cards, they would have to get rid of both the JP Morgan Reserve and the Sapphire Reserve, which won't happen. I would say Chase is doing pretty well, even when they've lost money from these cards. |
[redacted]
It is true that the value of UR will be significantly reduced under the proposed change. However, neither Freedom or FU is designed as a card similar to CSP or CSR. Both Freedom and FU are designed as cashback cards (in the form of UR). Its cashback structure has not been impacted by this proposed change. If you don't like the term "sub-system", I would rather say this as "You get what you pay for". To be fair, Citi does not always give 1 year before the changes. Some changes were noticed for 1-2 months before the change was implemented. Legally speaking - Chase reserves the right to change the T&Cs at any times. With this, Chase can do pretty much as it sees fit.
Originally Posted by BOSTravels
(Post 28567973)
If FU loses the ability to transfer to CSR/CSP and therefore loses transfer to e.g. airlines, AMEX EveryDay will be superior to FU.
Originally Posted by BOSTravels
(Post 28567973)
In fact, if FU becomes a simpleton 1.5% cash back card you might as well get a simpleton 2% cash back card from e.g. Citi or Cap1.
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Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 28568540)
Only half is true. While Citi DC earns 2%, it lacks a bonus that both Chase and Cap1 offer.
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Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 28568540)
It is true that the value of UR will be significantly reduced under the proposed change. However, neither Freedom or FU is designed as a card similar to CSP or CSR. Both Freedom and FU are designed as cashback cards (in the form of UR). Its cashback structure has not been impacted by this proposed change.
This is a classic example of begging the question. As Ambrose Bierce once wrote, "An ostrich doesn't need wings because it can't fly anyway." [redacted] many consumers choose the Freedom cards for the UR benefit.......consumers (like me) who never redeem for cash. We know that those consumers exist because every travel blogger advises their readers that redemptions for cash are the worst possible use of the Freedom cards. [redacted] |
Originally Posted by Steve in Olympia
(Post 28568872)
It is a fallacy to declare that the Freedom cards "are designed as cashback cards" and, since the "cashback structure has not been impacted," the cards have not been devalued. Your argument reaches the desired conclusion only because you assumed the conclusion before you reached it.
This is a classic example of begging the question. As Ambrose Bierce once wrote, "An ostrich doesn't need wings because it can't fly anyway." [redacted] many consumers choose the Freedom cards for the UR benefit.......consumers (like me) who never redeem for cash. We know that those consumers exist because every travel blogger advises their readers that redemptions for cash are the worst possible use of the Freedom cards. [redacted]. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 28567617)
Chase should stay with its own mid market level instead of trying to break in the high end cards market. The decision to incur huge acquisition cost has proved to be a costly mistake so far and it could not wait to make remedy. Some analysts estimate that it would take Chase 5 to 6 years to recoup that acquisition cost. A very large percentage of the new customers acquired probably would not renew anyway whether it devalue the UR program or not. Now with the inevitable devaluation of UR program it just adds MORE attrition to the CSR card, as well as the Freedom and Freedom Unlimited card because now a straight 2% cash rebate card looks a whole lot better. Even for the 1.5% CapOne QuickSilver due to it has no Forex Fee and CapOne does not add any Visa network fee to the transaction unlike with all Chase so-called 0 Forex fee cards actually still incur 1% Visa Network fee built in the exchange rates.
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Originally Posted by Steve in Olympia
(Post 28568872)
It is a fallacy to declare that the Freedom cards "are designed as cashback cards" and, since the "cashback structure has not been impacted," the cards have not been devalued. Your argument reaches the desired conclusion only because you assumed the conclusion before you reached it.
This is a classic example of begging the question. As Ambrose Bierce once wrote, "An ostrich doesn't need wings because it can't fly anyway." [redacted] many consumers choose the Freedom cards for the UR benefit.......consumers (like me) who never redeem for cash. We know that those consumers exist because every travel blogger advises their readers that redemptions for cash are the worst possible use of the Freedom cards. [redacted]. All that said, this REALLY sucks for Ink card owners. |
After i filled in the survey, I consolidated my UR points up. I'm not going to leave it up to chance there's a grace period to do it once they announce the new "enhanced" benefits.
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Chase must suddenly see a surge in points transfers from F/FU to CSP/CSR...lol.
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Originally Posted by BOSTravels
(Post 28571458)
Chase must suddenly see a surge in points transfers from F/FU to CSP/CSR...lol.
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Originally Posted by jalabi99
(Post 28569002)
Chase is shooting itself in the foot with this idea of theirs.
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Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 28572060)
Implement or not, Chase is shooting itself either ways.
You know what would be great? If companies actually gave a [redacted] like they used to, and didn't pretend they were broke and on the verge of bankruptcy. |
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
(Post 28568527)
Give me a break. The actual company is JP Morgan, and their stock is up $30 a share this year.
If you want "Chase" to get rid of high end cards, they would have to get rid of both the JP Morgan Reserve and the Sapphire Reserve, which won't happen. I would say Chase is doing pretty well, even when they've lost money from these cards. JP Morgan Reserve card's customer base is MUCH smaller than the Sapphire Reserve. Chase wants a much bigger piece of the high end market than the JP Morgan Palladium currently has. That is the reason to introduce the Sapphire Reserve because it cannot grow the Palladium meaningfully. The name change on the Palladium should be a story-telling to you that why Chase wants to introduce the "Reserve" line of cards. Talk about high end market - just take a look of the AMEX Plat card line-up - you have the generic Plat card, the MB Plat and the card for Ameriprise customers though seems everyone can get it for example But the Schwab's Plat and the Morgan Stanley Plat definitely are only for the folks that actually have a high investment assets in the respective institutions, no less than the JP Morgan Palladium, sorry, the now "Reserve" card. So the AMEX High End market is a much stronger line up than Chase's JP Morgan Palladium then the new Sapphire Reserve which is not even a year old and already Chase has to think about cut backs. |
Originally Posted by Steve in Olympia
(Post 28568872)
It is a fallacy to declare that the Freedom cards "are designed as cashback cards" and, since the "cashback structure has not been impacted," the cards have not been devalued. Your argument reaches the desired conclusion only because you assumed the conclusion before you reached it.
This is a classic example of begging the question. As Ambrose Bierce once wrote, "An ostrich doesn't need wings because it can't fly anyway." [redacted] many consumers choose the Freedom cards for the UR benefit.......consumers (like me) who never redeem for cash. We know that those consumers exist because every travel blogger advises their readers that redemptions for cash are the worst possible use of the Freedom cards. [redacted].
Originally Posted by slm9555
(Post 28568964)
Even though the Freedom and FU are "Cash back cars" even Chase markets the benefits as "points" that you can redeem for cash back. For example, when you read the fine terms on a FU sign up bonus it basically says that you get 15,000 points that can be redeemed for $150 cash back. It's really all about points and those points are used for cash back if you want them to be.
Several years ago we received preapproval Ink Cash offers with "$250" bonus like every 2 months. I always threw it away thinking that we did not want a cash rebate card... That was until one day I finally sat down to read the T&Cs, then found out it actually was 25,000 points that can be redeemed for $250 cash back... That tells us that Chase does not intend this card as a cash rebate card from the outset - the cash rebate is just one of the redemption options. Freedom has gone from straight cash rebate to UR point earning at least 5 or more years ago fwiw. |
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 28568540)
Legally speaking - Chase reserves the right to change the T&Cs at any times. With this, Chase can do pretty much as it sees fit.
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Moderator Note: Please follow the FT rules and respond to concepts and ideas without name calling.
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My fear is that the devaluation of UR transfers from no-fee to fee cards is only the first phase of Chase's changes. The second phase will likely be to adjust the fee and/or benefits of the CSR, but they won't even hint about such changes until the first wave of CSR cardholders has made its renewal decisions. I'm thinking they will either increase the CSR's annual fee or reduce the travel credit to put greater distance between the cost of holding a CSP ($95) and a CSR ($450-300=150). I predict the rumors will start in November.
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