Mar 19, 2014, 6:28 pm
Last edit by: StartinSanDiego
This thread is now closed.
Please continue the discussion here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase-ultimate-rewards/1986148-chase-shut-downs-credit-card-account-closures-data-tales-speculation-2019-a.html
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This thread is for discussion of issues with transfers of UR points directly into someone else's UR account.
There is a separate thread to discuss transfers of UR points to someone else's hotel or airline loyalty program account: Official: No UR points to another person's airline or hotel account
Please continue the discussion here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase-ultimate-rewards/1986148-chase-shut-downs-credit-card-account-closures-data-tales-speculation-2019-a.html
================================================== ================================================== ===============================
This thread is for discussion of issues with transfers of UR points directly into someone else's UR account.
There is a separate thread to discuss transfers of UR points to someone else's hotel or airline loyalty program account: Official: No UR points to another person's airline or hotel account
Chase closed my Sapphire Preferred account due to transfers to other UR accounts.
Oct 17, 2012, 2:21 pm
#76
Moderator
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Oct 17, 2012, 3:55 pm
#77
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PHL (kinda, no airport is really close)
Programs: AA Exp, but not sure for how long. Enterprise Platinum woo-hoo!
Posts: 4,551
Believe it or not and for what it's worth, there are still many people in the United States who are married under common law -- common law marriages (private marriage contracts between two people not formalized with a religious or civil ceremony or license) are recognized in about a dozen states. And if you move to another state, the state must constitutionally recognize your common law marriage even if that state itself doesn't have common law marriage.
In most of these situations, a bank would have no way to know. (Most credit card issuers' standard applications do not ask.) There're no publicly recorded documents. The IRS will have a document that common law spouses file if they chose to file as married, and states and employers and insurers might have various documents, but most of these wouldn't be public.
Just a minor point I'm making, but the bottom line is that for any two people, a bank really has no way to definitively say they are not lawfully married. One can often, through public records, prove that two people are married. But one usually cannot, through public records, prove that two people are not married.
(Parenthetically, if you're not asleep yet, this is a common problem for lawyers attempting to prove two people are not married (e.g., in a life insurance case) -- it essentially requires proof of a negative. The non-existence of a marriage license doesn't prove the matter.)
In most of these situations, a bank would have no way to know. (Most credit card issuers' standard applications do not ask.) There're no publicly recorded documents. The IRS will have a document that common law spouses file if they chose to file as married, and states and employers and insurers might have various documents, but most of these wouldn't be public.
Just a minor point I'm making, but the bottom line is that for any two people, a bank really has no way to definitively say they are not lawfully married. One can often, through public records, prove that two people are married. But one usually cannot, through public records, prove that two people are not married.
(Parenthetically, if you're not asleep yet, this is a common problem for lawyers attempting to prove two people are not married (e.g., in a life insurance case) -- it essentially requires proof of a negative. The non-existence of a marriage license doesn't prove the matter.)
Oct 17, 2012, 3:59 pm
#78
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=297-297.5
Of course, whether this is how Chase intended the term to be interpreted or whether their practice follows their policy is anyone's guess.
Oct 17, 2012, 4:04 pm
#79
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PHL (kinda, no airport is really close)
Programs: AA Exp, but not sure for how long. Enterprise Platinum woo-hoo!
Posts: 4,551
I'm not an attorney, but my understanding of common-law marriage is that you must hold yourself out as being married. You must also generally be cohabitating at the time of marriage and continue to cohabitate for a period of time, whereas a cermonial marriage contains no such requirement (my wife and I have never lived together full-time). There are only a few states in the US that permit common-law marriages, although all states must recognize valid common-law marriages from other states. However you are NOT married simply because you live together, even if you live in one of the common-law states.
I'm pretty sure the rules are different in Canada, because my wife's Canadian tax return contains many references to common-law marriages, while a USA tax return contains none.
I'm going to take a wild-assed guess though that if two people with the same address told Chase that they were married, they'd take their word for it.
As for domestic partners, gender and sexual orientation don't matter. Until a few years ago, it wasn't uncommon for many employers to give certain benefits only to same-sex couples on the grounds that opposite-sex couples could marry if they wanted to. That's pretty much history though; I know my employer has domestic partner rules that are gender-neutral.
I'm pretty sure the rules are different in Canada, because my wife's Canadian tax return contains many references to common-law marriages, while a USA tax return contains none.
I'm going to take a wild-assed guess though that if two people with the same address told Chase that they were married, they'd take their word for it.
As for domestic partners, gender and sexual orientation don't matter. Until a few years ago, it wasn't uncommon for many employers to give certain benefits only to same-sex couples on the grounds that opposite-sex couples could marry if they wanted to. That's pretty much history though; I know my employer has domestic partner rules that are gender-neutral.
Oct 17, 2012, 4:14 pm
#80
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: PDX
Posts: 200
It looks like so far only the most egregious offenders are getting shut down. I highly doubt chase would go pulling marriage records. If you have multiple transfers to multiple people then it's obvious you are in violation.
Oct 17, 2012, 4:15 pm
#81
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
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used to combine rewards belonging to the same ... business
Last edited by mia; Oct 18, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Oct 17, 2012, 4:16 pm
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chicagoland, IL, USA
Programs: WN CP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,192
I am curious as to whether it's the size or volume of transfers that matters, or both.
I know someone whose CP was cancelled who received 60+K from an individual in contemplation of a Coupon Connection-type deal and transferred it right back. That's it. One time.
Was it the pretty large amount that did him in? Is Chase shutting down folks who did a small amount, or several small amounts?
Thanks for comments from those who unfortunately have been cancelled.
I know someone whose CP was cancelled who received 60+K from an individual in contemplation of a Coupon Connection-type deal and transferred it right back. That's it. One time.
Was it the pretty large amount that did him in? Is Chase shutting down folks who did a small amount, or several small amounts?
Thanks for comments from those who unfortunately have been cancelled.
Oct 17, 2012, 4:39 pm
#83
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,396
In other words, just like you would write "spouse" instead of "registered spouse" you would write "domestic partner" instead of "registered domestic partner". "Registered" is implied by the term.
This has of course gotten way of topic, and I agree that I highly doubt Chase would either request or accept receipt of a marriage or domestic partnership certificate as a way to dispute their decision to terminate one's account.
Oct 17, 2012, 9:39 pm
#84
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237
Update: I was talking to a supervisor about the possibility of a T&C change to include family such as a son or a daughter and not just spouse.
I mentioned that I wouldn't want my account to be shut down just because I transferred some points to my mother since she needed some to book a ticket.
The supervisor said that there is more than a 99% chance that accounts like mine would NOT be shut down because it's more than obvious that I/we are not abusing the system and that we are related (same last name and same billing address).
He further explicitly mentioned that Chase was trying to crack down on people who sell/barter their UR points.
I mentioned that I wouldn't want my account to be shut down just because I transferred some points to my mother since she needed some to book a ticket.
The supervisor said that there is more than a 99% chance that accounts like mine would NOT be shut down because it's more than obvious that I/we are not abusing the system and that we are related (same last name and same billing address).
He further explicitly mentioned that Chase was trying to crack down on people who sell/barter their UR points.
Oct 18, 2012, 8:22 pm
#85
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NJ/NYC
Programs: UA and HH
Posts: 4,346
My account was closed today. I had 2 transfers from other people and I transferred 8k points to someone else. The sup I spoke to said there decisions were irrevocable and they would not reopen my account despite me being tied to the private bank through my parents. I got no warning at all and have spent about 60k on the card over the past 8 months. Now, my existence will revolve around trying to screw Chase as much as possible
Oct 18, 2012, 8:33 pm
#86
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
My account was closed today. I had 2 transfers from other people and I transferred 8k points to someone else. The sup I spoke to said there decisions were irrevocable and they would not reopen my account despite me being tied to the private bank through my parents. I got no warning at all and have spent about 60k on the card over the past 8 months. Now, my existence will revolve around trying to screw Chase as much as possible
Now if you werent buying and selling the pts that would be something else, but its eems you were banking (no pun intended) on your parenst relationship with Chase to get around any problems and you gambled and lost so your goal is make Chase pay for nota llowing you to do whats against their T&CS. Ill never understand why people think and act as they do
Oct 18, 2012, 9:22 pm
#87
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237
Oct 19, 2012, 5:32 am
#88
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NJ/NYC
Programs: UA and HH
Posts: 4,346
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 6_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/536.26 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0 Mobile/10A405 Safari/8536.25)
well if you were in fact buying and selling the pts and Chase was correct and its against their T&Cs why look to screw them when the T&Cs are the Warning in and of itself.
Now if you werent buying and selling the pts that would be something else, but its eems you were banking (no pun intended) on your parenst relationship with Chase to get around any problems and you gambled and lost so your goal is make Chase pay for nota llowing you to do whats against their T&CS. Ill never understand why people think and act as they do
I was helping a fellow FTer with no status on UA book flights under my 1k account. In fact, I didn't even get anything out of it, just trying to be a nice and helpful person. As to the PB relationship, I'm on my parents checking account which is what qualifies them for the relationship. I'm sure Chase has the ability to look these things up before closing ones accounts. I only mentioned it to the agent after she said they would consider re-opening the account.
My credit card had been open for about 8 months and the PB relationship has been around since I was added to my parents account about 10 years ago. The last point transfer was done 2 months ago.
Originally Posted by craz
My account was closed today. I had 2 transfers from other people and I transferred 8k points to someone else. The sup I spoke to said there decisions were irrevocable and they would not reopen my account despite me being tied to the private bank through my parents. I got no warning at all and have spent about 60k on the card over the past 8 months. Now, my existence will revolve around trying to screw Chase as much as possible
Now if you werent buying and selling the pts that would be something else, but its eems you were banking (no pun intended) on your parenst relationship with Chase to get around any problems and you gambled and lost so your goal is make Chase pay for nota llowing you to do whats against their T&CS. Ill never understand why people think and act as they do
My credit card had been open for about 8 months and the PB relationship has been around since I was added to my parents account about 10 years ago. The last point transfer was done 2 months ago.
Last edited by gbryan84; Oct 19, 2012 at 5:41 am
Oct 19, 2012, 5:45 am
#89
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,758
What most were doing are against the T&C’s. If you can’t do the time then don’t do the crime. Let it go and move on.
Oct 19, 2012, 6:32 am
#90
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In CT,left my heart in Leicester.
Programs: Work in progress.
Posts: 1,237